Quoted from necro_nemesis

It's being done with cars....

What your looking at here is a brand new Camaro.

http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/hrdp_0512_crate_camaro_final_assembly_complete/index.html

I was going to post the same thing, I have a friend with a brand new 67 Mustang fastback.

I would look to see how well the Williams and Gottlieb Video rereleases did to see if there wis/was enough of a nostalgia market.  People in my age bracket (who loved Black Knight, High Speed, Xenon, etc.) are only now just being able to afford to purchase them for their basements, and as such they take up a lot of space, and having only one gets old fast.  With a recession in full swing, the last thing on most people's minds right now (ours excepted) is pumping up their games rooms when you can spend $250 and get a WII or XBox and the world is your oyster (for the kids anyway).

Now, there is a bit of history that would have to repeat itself. Arcades were traditionally places where post-war and depression teens (and families in England) went to gamble, and lose themselves so they didn't have to think about the hardships of life. Movies have that same kind of draw (and movie theatre attendance is on the rise again).  Teens adopted ardacdes, not only because that was the only place they could often play the newest games, but it was a place of their own to "hang" and even to buy and sell recreational drugs.

I lose myself in my pins (playing and fixing) because it is another world and when I'm in it, I don't answer the phone, and the rest of the world doesn't matter.

About the only future I can see for pinball, apart from collectors and a few well-to-do people's basements are museums and places like Disney's Arcades,DisneyQuest and Playdium (that is until we are long past taking our kids there) - and potentially "nostalgia" arcades.  People have asked me whether setting up a "family friendly" arcade (that doesn't open too late and not during school hours) might be a way to entertain the youth of our town (skateboard park is the biggest draw right now).  I don't honestly know whether they would be interested in in pinballs.  My 8 year old son would gravitate towards a driving game or a first person gun video game in a heartbeat before he would a pinball (and it's not like he doesn't like them).

Pinballs require too much thought and skill (these days), there isn't enough of an immediate payoff (except for some of the easier games) to satisfy today's media saturated minds.  I don't know, I think the future is pretty dark for pinball.  It would take a genius to ressurect it.  Though I personally believe that Williams / Stern et al, are missing the boat on taking pinball BACK to the casinos, since it now registers with the boomers who attend them (and might possibly go just because they have them) - that's today's "arcade" for yesteryear's pinheads.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

I think it would be terrific to project animations inside the game with a small LCD projector. Like a fully animated Rudy or for example the three heads in the Haunted Mansion ride all interacting immediately to your gameplay. Can you imagine how great Haunted Mansion would have been as P2K with the ghosts floating around on the glass like the ballroom in the ride?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OysvX9VpjY

Shoot the sculls as they ascend out of the organ during spirit waltz multiball.

Sounds like the creative juice is getting squeezed out by a bunch of unimaginative yes men from Steve's post.

I definately agree with Steve on one point ... crappy licensing. A Haunted House theme pin would cost ZERO in licensing fees, and would be a high seller if well done.

I still dream of a P2K pin with a Haunted House theme... imagine the potential.

Stern going under? At this point, why not.... BUT... that being said... I hope another player enters the arena with maybe a P2K design with the NuCore system... now THAT would be great!

And as for cutting production costs, there are ways around that. Parts commonality is easy. Have a single common main harness for all pins, with different wiring branches at the end. EASY to do. Takes up a bit more wiring, but by making thousands of the same harness, and only the smaller game-specific harnesses between the main one and the components are custom, and you save lots. Also cut down on the custom toys... some are just redundant.

So technically, on a new (P2K or similar) cab, everything is the same except the playfield itself and the wiring stapled on the playfield right up to the main harness. You can go even further by having a simple generic but attractive cab. Sideart is nice and all, but in most cases, no one sees it.

Change the playfield in 10 minutes, install a new translite, use a flashdrive to install the new game programming in a couple of minutes, and you are done. It would sell. Ease of maintenance. Operators LOVE that.

It might and quite likely is game over for the new machines, but I would have to say it's hardly over for the collectors. I have seen many of the distributors that sell parts to collectors become more substantial over the past few years. The only thing holding them back is the licensing. I see it going the way of companies like Year One. You will get what you need in bits and pieces and end up paying a premium to build a nice pin.

At the end of the day there are going to be your Hemi Cuda convertibles and your 76 Mustang II's to buy up. Already this distinction is clearly being made.

Quoted from Hippochrome

The exact same can be said about Pinball....The average joe do recognize the old machines, and get really excited to know that they still available....these same joes then try the new Sterns and get confused by the rules/modes, and turned off by clunky choppy crappy feeling that Stern's gameplay offers and go away with a bad taste for pinball.

I work with a lot of "average joes", and when any of them come into my classroom, it doesn't matter what pinball machine is there at the time, they tell me "hey!  I played one of those when I was a kid".  The oldest machine I've had there is a 1976 Bally Flip Flop.  The newest one I've had there was LOTR.  They don't recognize the old from the new...it's just a pinball machine to them.  

We recognize them, and get excited over them only because we're collectors.  We've taken the time and effort to educate ourselves.  To the others who haven't, one is the same as another.

What I read from Steve's comments is what I see in a typical manufacturing enviorment, same as what I work in everyday. In the ideal world, when the product is complete it is shipped out. However in the real world, you must drive the product to market to be profitable. Deadlines must be made and machines must be shipped, payroll must be met and vendors paid. We often ship out products with unfinished code and software bugs. These are resolved over time, customers are not left out to dry, but resolving these issues are prioritized and addressed by need and often less than ideal situations are creating in order to keep the cash flowing.

Reading those comments I see Stern coming at a crossroad, they will either come out of this more focused, or it will be the end. Gary Stern is a business man, do not confuse this for passion for pinball. His passion is the business of Pinball. Alienating people with passion for pinball as he has done is very dangerous and time will tell us what the result of this is.

GARY STERN is the last man standing for a reason and he will still be around because he learned from the past.The layoffs at STERN was proof he will not go into the hole when times are tuff,a smart company will always do whats needed to keep themselves in business.Everybody thought pinball was dead a long time ago but who wouldn't want a LORD OF THE RINGS.IT WAS MADE BY STERN!  WHOLY CRAP!  A VERY COLLECTABLE PIN WAS MADE BY STERN!

That was a company everyone said would never make a pinball machine a collector would ever want.

I was playing CSI last week and I thought it was a cool game,will it be the next LORD OF THE RINGS or the next CACTUS CANYON?(LAST MECHANICAL PIN MADE BY BALLY)

Quoted from poolman

but who wouldn't want a LORD OF THE RINGS.IT WAS MADE BY STERN!  WHOLY CRAP!  A VERY COLLECTABLE PIN WAS MADE BY STERN!

As a "collector" I don't. Doesn't mean I wouldn't bring one in to flip around with it but I don't see it as a collector pin. Sorry.

IMHO would go before very collectable. IMNSHO.

I picture a guy that loves pinball machines throwing rocks at the last factory making them,I don't see anyone stepping up to make them,GENE tried and lost how much?Will GENE or WAYNE make pinballs.........I'm thinking no.

If your waiting for WILLIAMS/BALLY pins to start being produced you may have a long wait.

PAT LAWLOR said it at EXPO "WE as designers will bankrupt any company to get cool stuff in our games"

He also said "I don't think you will see pinballs being made in 5 years"

He wasn't being arogant,he was telling it the way it was.

Not the first time someone has killed there  favourite hobby.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

As a "collector" I don't. Doesn't mean I wouldn't bring one in to flip around with it but I don't see it as a collector pin. Sorry.

IMHO would go before very collectable. IMNSHO.

Don't you own a GUNS N ROSES?

made by STERN?

Quoted from poolman

Don't you own a GUNS N ROSES?

made by STERN?

Yes, but what does that have to do with LOTR which is what you referred to?

So what you are saying, if I understand you rightly, is even when the designers are telling you they can't build what they should be building that we should all put blinders on and blindly follow along like sheep.

As for waiting. I am not waiting. If you look at what I have bought you will see there clearly is no "waiting".

I'm with Ritchie, he has it right on, it's genious and savvy that drives innovation.  I worked for Alliance Atlantis Films & Television during the beginning of its "demise" after going IPO and I would say that verbatim everything Ritchie said about Stern happened there to.  It becomes not about "the product" any more, it's about "the stock" or "the profit" - get cheaper parts and improve our margin, or stop short of "finishing"... and because of that the product faulters.  It's not "JUST" about pinball becoming less popular - we just see it more here because Canada evolves in entertainment technology faster (due to our overall wealth) than many countries.

Add to that the outrageous price one has to pay to play a round or two of pinball these days....

I have been pushing this message (below) since I started here on MAACA (sorry I forget the RGP poster I am quoting):

"1) Emphasize the random, both in rules and layout.  Every game should
    have objectives that can only be reached by random motion of
    the ball.  Being able to shoot at every objective is great for
    tournament competition, but for the average player looking to
    just have some fun, it's tedious and frustrating.  In addition
    to random ball action, there should be a random element to the
    rules and objectives.  Card games and casino games incorporate
    that aspect naturally, but the basic scheme should incorporate
    things that don't behave the same way every time.  Use that
    random element to tease and tantalize.


2) Modes suck.  Rules can be complex, but they should be SHALLOW.
    Experienced players approach a new game and ask the same old
    questions.  How do I hit all the modes?  How do I get the
    multiball?  How do I get the obligatory extra ball? How do I
    get the wizard mode?  Unfortunately, the number of people
    wanting to play that kind of game is waning.  Deep and
    complex games are better played on game consoles nowadays.


    But Pinball responded by adding MORE modes, MORE
    multiballs, MORE rules, MORE wizard modes, etc.  Better to
    have a simpler objective: light up the grid, climb the ladder,
    knock down all the clowns, etc.  Make these goals as tricky
    to accomplish as you like (and don't forget the random elements),
    but break the now-old patterns of modes/extra balls/multiball/
    wizard mode. "

I wonder what Vengence has to say about this....    

I have always said, being a "non player" player, that it's all about the sound-track, the humour, and being able to somehow, out of no where score a billion points or get the big multiball without a lot of "work" or linear play - earnng bragging  rights out of the blue, or putting up your initials that makes pinball for me.  IF I didn't get a little "hit" like this once in a while (again being a non player player), I wouldn't have much interest in playing (just as I didn't enjoy video games much because of their liniearity and the necessity of "training" hand-eye skills.

Skill comes second (and I am not de-emphasizing its importance in longevity of home owned machines, or for skilled players).  But for the general public and the kids who could play pinballs, put quarters in and sell machines, IT IS A FORM OF GAMBLING, you put some minimal skill into a thing that sometimes PAYS OFF, and then you are hooked.  You want to see if you can get it to PAY OUT again.  The randomness aspect of pinball is partly responsible for the real boom in pinball in the last part of the 20th century.  The number of people who derive pleasure from acquiring the "skill" of pinball is diminished because as far as complex entertainment gaming goes, nothing can beat the pseudo-reality of modern video games...pinball is boring by comparison.  However, put someone in front of one and have it scream "goal" , have a crowd cheering (like WCS94 or Shaq Attaq) or hit a knocker, or light fireworks, or start a raucus music sting because you just scored some fantastic goal that you hardly know how you made it, but makes everyone in the bar turn their attention towards you, the "pinball champ" - and you essentially have the "magic" that pinball holds for most people.  The desire to be able, through some sheer lucky play, to have the machine pay off in your favour.  

JUST LIKE putting a quarter in a slot machine, hitting that random jackpot (since most people aren't skilled enough to purposely complete modes) is what made pinball attractive to the masses.

Despite what Ritchie says, however, I disagree that The Simpsons or Family Guy were poor properties for pinball and infact I think they fit rather well so long as you could select whether the game plays in "adult" or "family friendly" versions.

And I go back to my earlier point that if Pinball machines paid off in free games more frequently, they would be a whole lot more popular (because that's one unique thing that they have that video games and redemption games don't).  And don't kid yourself, redemption games are "kiddy gambling" devices without question.  Guess what the single most popular game in "Webkinds World" is?  The Wishing Well.  It's a slot machine.  (Did I just go off on a wild tangent?

(If anyone is wondering why I mention slot machine theory in my analysis of pinball so much its because I have an equal passion for slot machines and gambling devices as for pinball.)