I imagine most have been following the thread regarding code update on Batman. Now the source has posted:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/d3784bcbb7f61b84#

I honestly was starting to think Stern would die as a result of the next 2 licenses: CSI and 24. With the new attitude, I don't think they will last that long. They haven't even update their own damn website for the release of the Batman pinball. Click on the link and you get a "Coming Soon" page.

Things don't look for new pinballs. Guess I'm going to stick with my Williams games. Might get a TSPP in the future, but I haven't nothing to look forward to regarding new pinballs.

Duane

Wow that's pretty crappy.  I was looking forward to the third pinball in the lineup, CSI, 24 but then Transformers is supposed to be scheduled.  

That was going to be a NIB purchase as the GF is a Transformers fanatic so we were going to split the costs, but now, I'm not sure I'll bother.  If Batman is done, that's pretty sad, the game had allot of potential but without the rules it's nothing.

What's odd is that with Gary refrencing POTC over and over again, POTC has more rules then Batman by far.  It's not the deepest game but it has lots to do.  Unlike Batman as an example where mystery scores 500,00 every time, the skill shot does nothing, I don't think the gadets have any purpose, the modes are all the same.  Sad, Sad day if this is the way things are headed.  

I don't know.  All that I got from the thread was that Stern does not consider the home player as it's target market.  Not sure how that means that they will be out of business in a year?  Do people here really think that the hobby keeps Stern running?  

The whole Stern thing seems to be a touchy subject - to say the least.

Some have the feeling we (as players/collectors) should be grateful that they are providing pins.
Others feel more that Stern, the manufacturer should be more accountable for a finished product.
And, others float around somewhere in the middle waiting to stir the pot on the debate.

My personal feeling is that with any product - it should be complete at shipping.  I understand software bugs and fixes, and that is normal with any software.  But, provide patches for UNFORSEEN problems or glitches.

I've been reading posts elsewhere and have seen the emotions it causes - both ways.  Personally, I doubt very much that you will see any new pinballs somewhere in the next 24 months.

Gary Stern stated quite clearly in an interview that home use has become a large part of the market for pinball.  Having said that, he must realise that incomplete software won't stand up in that environment.  As some state, these machines are essentially made for earning profits on route, and therefore don't need to be complete or fully functional - I disagree.  I think purchasers of new Stern pins are being taken for pidgeons.  Collecting is a bit of a disease, and Stern is/has been counting on that.  I think after being bitten once or twice, for fairly large ticket luxury items, people are starting to open their eyes and realise the emperor is naked.

You can make excuses for any shortcoming(s) by Stern, but the reality is, by not supporting released machines with complete software - they are killing their own monopoly (sic).

We've seen this same incompetance in companies before - most notably Microsoft.  There is a big difference though, in that pinball is not a necessity by any stretch (flame on), and as with any luxury type item, people will stop buying in the quantities needed to make financial sense to the manufacturer.

I find it sad, in that it is avoidable - but inevitable IMHO that in the next couple years, we will be religated to passing around only what already exists in the pinball world.........

Shields up

The sad thing for me is that software only costs the designer/programmer time, there are no massive hardware or overhead costs, so i do not understand Stern's justifications. Having said that, I do not understand a lot of things he does, for a few thousand dollars of investment he could finish the code properly. His reasoning is pretty lame in my book on that matter.

Will that mean the end of Stern?  Titles like CSI and 24 will definitely not help, but time will tell. Not sure what the future holds, but I see very few people on this forum buying NIB pins and I really wonder how many NIB really go into peoples home. With the current US economy, it is definitely not in the thousands. Maybe a few hundred? Considering that, you can understand why Stern is concern about the ops and not the home market.  

The thing that keeps sticking out in my mind about all of this is the fact Gary keeps talking about how the Op's are his core customers and they are the only customers that matter to him...

Who are the Op's customers?  Whether it's through NIB sales to consumers (small portion apparently), or if the game is out on location, it's us the consumer who drop the quarters into the games, so we are the end customer.  If Gary thinks the buck stops with the Op, I seriously think he needs to get his eyes checked as that is unbelievably short sighted.

Product with unfinished code as obvious as TDK (not to mention past titles), I can't see how even the casual quarter dropper would want to re-play the game as it would get confusing or just piss them off.  The more anyone plays the better they understand the rules right?  And the more they understand the rules as they are right now will soon realize they are incomplete.. and stop playing.  

And here I thought pinball was all about replay value.... Meh... what do I know.  I'm just a collector.

D

Who are these operators he talks about? I haven't seen a Stern newer than 2004 in Ottawa except for in people's houses.

Pissing on the hardcore fans is never a good idea. I said it on RGP and I'll say it here. Once the movie studios started to listen to the comic book fanboys (see X-Men, Spider-Man, Iron Man, and The Dark Knight) they started to rake in the dough. When they outright crap on their fans, we get flops like the Hulk, Ghost Rider, and Punisher.

Seriously, TDK is 90% there, how much would it cost to finish it? I bet Lyman would do it for free if allowed.

The fact that Gary is showing that he is incompetent does not bode well for the company. I hope someone with more foresight and respect for the consumer buys him out.

Also, I was crazy to consider BDK as my first NIB purchase. CRAZY!

Quoted from newf112

Do people here really think that the hobby keeps Stern running?  

Absolutely! Without us, his business is DEAD.

I started collecting over 10 years ago. Back then, prices of used pinballs were primarily determined by age and pinballs depreciated in value pretty quickly. A TZ, for example, after 4 years was worth about $1,000. Operators were counting on the coin box to get all their money.

Now the situation has changed. There is a healthy collector market keeping the value of used pins alive. An operator can buy, for example, a LOTR NIB, operate it for several years, and still count on getting over $2K for it -- provided it is kept in decent shape -- when he decides to sell it. Now he can put that towards a new pinball with an exciting theme.

If Stern produces crappy incomplete games, who's going to buy them? Not the collector market and that will mean a real decrease in the value of the pins. That will change the economics for operators and they will start to operate their existing inventory longer -- meaning less sales for Stern.

And like Doug mentioned, we are the customers of the ops. If we don't like the games, he can forget about us playing them.

Duane

Quoted from jonny_eh

Also, I was crazy to consider BDK as my first NIB purchase. CRAZY!

You and me both. Fortunately my wallet didn't match my desire

Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

Now the situation has changed. There is a healthy collector market keeping the value of used pins alive. An operator can buy, for example, a LOTR NIB, operate it for several years, and still count on getting over $2K for it -- provided it is kept in decent shape -- when he decides to sell it. Now he can put that towards a new pinball with an exciting theme.

If Stern produces crappy incomplete games, who's going to buy them? Not the collector market and that will mean a real decrease in the value of the pins. That will change the economics for operators and they will start to operate their existing inventory longer -- meaning less sales for Stern.

I just realized something. This would explain WPT's mysterious firmware update two years late. It got its update, to please the collector, just as operators would be looking to resell it for home use. Maybe Stern's new strategy is to only update the software once the game's been run into the ground on route. It's still a really dumb idea though, since the game's reputation will already be ruined by then. WPT never recovered, and I doubt BDK will now too.

Quoted from jonny_eh

Maybe Stern's new strategy is to only update the software once the game's been run into the ground on route. It's still a really dumb idea though, since the game's reputation will already be ruined by then.

It could very well be that this is part of Stern's game plan.  You would be correct about the rep being ruined, but it will also guarantee that Stern will not have any demand to re-run any of these titles in the future, unlike LOTR and TSPP which last time I checked have some of the best code ever written.  (and the fact Stern seriously believes it's own excuse for those re-runs all being due to theme, is pretty much in line with the rest of their thinking these days)

Wonder if Gary has a rose colour tint on his glasses?

D

Quoted from Menace

It could very well be that this is part of Stern's game plan.  You would be correct about the rep being ruined, but it will also guarantee that Stern will not have any demand to re-run any of these titles in the future, unlike LOTR and TSPP which last time I checked have some of the best code ever written.  

I really don't get them. Producing a quality product that generates so much demand, they only have to re-run it to generate cash makes a ton of sense to me. Producing a bunch of crap games to market "new" games to operators will only hasten their end.

Honestly, is anyone excited about 24 and CSI? Nope, that's the sounds of crickets. They would be far better off to focus on Batman. Complete the code to the standards of LOTR which isn't as deep as TSPP and they would have a killer game with tons of demand: both at home and on the streets. Both Ops and home users would win.

I honestly cann't believe they haven't even updated the webpage. Cripes!

I'm tempted to change my avitar to stern pissing on it's customers.

Duane

It's one thing to design shallow rules, it's another to leave a game unfinished. What does that tell the operators? To me, it would say that they don't stand behind the quality of their product, if I were an operator, I too wouldn't buy from Stern if they're gonna take this new attitude.

Even though my T2 is shallow, rule wise, it's complete! I wouldn't love my T2 if the random reward was always 500k points, and the skill shot didn't work.

If you read the "interview" again you should note that Gary says the bug fixes will still be released.  I would expect that the skill shot not working, no change in the mystery score, etc will be patched when fixes are available.  As for finishing the rest of the code... he says it is finished.  

I am confused when I hear people say that the code is incomplete.  Is that a perceptiion because of software bugs or is it because the rule set is not that deep?  I'm guessing they had to get the machines out with some bugs in the software to meet the launch date of the movie with the plan to patch down the road.  

Sending out software with bugs as large as cockroaches is never cool but he clearly states that they will be fixed.

I'm curious about the interviewer... I read RGP regularly and I don't recognise the name.  I also wonder if he "Michael Moore'd" the interview a bit to try and stir the pot a bit... similar to the claims many made about King of Kong.

Quoted from jonny_eh

Even though my T2 is shallow, rule wise, it's complete! I wouldn't love my T2 if the random reward was always 500k points, and the skill shot didn't work.

It could be that since he's an old man that he doesn't know the difference between features and bugs. No skill shot is not a bug. A mystery prize that is always 500k points may be a bug, but was probably intentional, with the intention of making it do something more interesting later, not a bug. All the modes are exactly the same, not a bug. The really frustrating thing is that the machine has so much potential, and it's going to waste.

Quoted from jonny_eh

The really frustrating thing is that the machine has so much potential, and it's going to waste.

I believe I read that it still doesn't have a wizard mode. That is a huge problem, if true.

Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

I believe I read that it still doesn't have a wizard mode. That is a huge problem, if true.

Duane

As someone who has never seen a wizard mode in any game I can say that it is not really that big a problem to the casual player.  From an op perspective, how many customers actually see a wizard mode on location?

Quoted from newf112

As someone who has never seen a wizard mode in any game I can say that it is not really that big a problem to the casual player.  From an op perspective, how many customers actually see a wizard mode on location?

Re-read my post regarding the importance of the home user to the operator. We buy their games once they have been routed. The re-sale value is a BIG part of the equation for ops. I've spoken w/ a few regarding this. If the game is lacking a wizard mode, that is going to effect the resale value to the home market. Plus there are other missing things.

Duane

I have purchased two of my machines from ops, they don't generate enough money in the cash box.  He is a close friend so i believe him when he says there might be 14 dollars in till in a week.  Split that with business it is in, doesn't even pay the guys hourly salary who is sent out to collect.  Most of the pins in the area I am from are in laundromats, no pinball parlors here.  Ops said he just rotates games from on location to another. As for keeping games in decent shape if you have 300 stops it would be impossible to keep up with upkeep.  Now if you are a small op 30 stops you have the time to clean and maintain.  Bigger ops just care about the cash box not on upkeep, just keep it playable to keep on earning or take it out and store it in the warehouse, or to an auction.  I would like to see Stern go out of business imagine how much Williams pins would go up in value.  Personally I don't like the inferior play of Stern,  the only game that comes close to being worth purchasing is WOF.  I almost bought SM but after playing it I come to the conclusion boring.  Bottom line collectors support the pinball market, without us who would buy a game if it not going to generate cash.

P.S. op also said Stern games break so much he would never buy another one.

Quoted from newf112

If you read the "interview" again you should note that Gary says the bug fixes will still be released.  I would expect that the skill shot not working, no change in the mystery score, etc will be patched when fixes are available.  

Good post.

While the things RGP-guy claimed Stern said definitely aren't what us collector-types wanna hear, we might be getting ahead of ourselves assuming things like the skill shot/mystery score will never be be fixed, ever.    

Be interesting to see how this plays out when they release some new bug fixes.

There was an interview with Gary Stern a while back for a Chicago news report (I think that's what it was), and they were talking about the home market.  IIRC, GS admitted at that time, the home market was a "Good portion" of new sales.  That fact on it's own necessitates a complete product.

A lot of the RGP posts focus on game depth but it's not if a game is deep, shallow or otherwise.  It just needs to be complete - at some point, and working as designed.

Quoted from MarkToo

It just needs to be complete - at some point, and working as designed.

I think that is the basis of everyone's gripe with Stern over the last 3 or 4 releases.  They publish fliers and press releases for these games with features and rule teasers to drive the hype machine, but they haven't delivered what they themselves said would be in the games.  So I can totally understand why people / buyers are upset over Sterns latest decisions regarding code...

So much for the standard rule of the customer is always right...    (oh I forgot... we're not Op's so that rule doesn't apply!)

D

http://groups.google.com/group.....aot#4a4123cdb46a6aff

Might want to check this post. I'm not getting into the debate just saw this thread and figured I'd cross post to MAACA.

Interesting that the official Stern website lists this update (2.1) as shaker support and minor tweaks but the owners of the games who have updated are noting multiple additions to the code.

Apparently Gary Stern was mistaken that 2.0 was the final update.

What a huge and unnecessary PR disaster that was! People are already fed up with Stern over unfinished code in 3 games (SM, WOF, and IJ4) and they shoot their mouth off about 2.0 being final? Wow. Such incompetence. I'm really glad BDK is looking very done, but I suspect there are gonna be missing animations and sounds, like in SM. I hope they finish both of them, cause the are great games that deserve it.

On another note, I just listened to BDK's music in pinballnews.com's review, and it's pretty awful. I doubt they'll change it at this point though, so I don't think I'll be buying this game, at least without playing it first.

Quoted from medvet

Apparently Gary Stern was mistaken that 2.0 was the final update.

Indeed. I sit corrected.

Duane

Quoted from medvet

Apparently Gary Stern was mistaken that 2.0 was the final update.

Or the interviewer misquoted or took something that Gary said out of context.  

Quoted from ALJO

STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND!!!!!

The latest game from Stern, Batman, had unfinished software (all the modes were the same, no skill shot, no random reward, unused inserts). People (especially those who bought the game) were waiting patiently/impatiently for the inevitable software updates. Then, all of a sudden, someone popped up on RGP (see the first post in this thread) claiming that they spoke to Gary Stern and that he said that there were not going to be anymore updates to Batman. This obviously made a LOT of people super angry. Why did people believe this guy? Well, because Stern has yet to finish the software on the 3 previous games, Spider-man, Wheel of Fortune, and Indiana Jones.

Now, it turns out that Stern releases an update for Batman that adds a lot of the missing features. So, either Gary Stern lied, was misinformed, his message was miscommunicated, the guy on RGP was full of it, or had a change of mind after the uproar to his words. I personally think it was a bit of being misinformed (he's old, probably doesn't understand software), and miscommunication.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

My two cents for what its worth...  I think Stern has pressure to be able to release these machines prior to the blockbuster movie releases.  This could be the reasoning behind sending out "unfinished" product to satisfy the operators.  Looking at that factory and all the work that goes into those machines I am sure meeting specific timelines becomes difficult.  

The attitude could be to get the machines to the operators as soon as possible so they can ride the quarters while the movie is hot.  Then finish the code and other problems later.

Just a thought...

Stern Has done Code changes after game was released for a long time
Lotr was like that so was TSPP.
I remember when i got my lotr had version 5 in it found it boring as hell allot of erros.
Look online found version 10 got that burned the game was now 175% better and new video modes and more modes.
This will be same for IJ and BK
They always say game is complete because looks bad if they say game is sent out but hey it not complete.
then after 6 months a year they send out a huge update for the game on the site saying fixes a few thins you add it OMG where did the following modes come from ect.
But In my mind Stern has not forgotten about us the collector.
He pushes the machine out ASAP so ops can use it and monopolise on it while it is new or movie is on.
Then after 6 months they can then cater for the collector market.
That�s my view on it.
Stern is not Evil just a monopoly on new pinball�s and trying to survive so makes sense.

See here:
http://www.actionpinball.com/roms.htm

Click on the "Revision History" link next to any of the games listed to see the many different changes that were made to games after their initial release. Yes, even Bally/Williams continued to rewrite/add code and fix bugs well after their machines hit the street. This is nothing new.

Take Cirqus Voltaire, for example. The final revision software came from the factory nearly a year after the game was released:
http://www.actionpinball.com/tech/cirqus.txt

Here is the synopsis:

Some people on RGP (and other places) just like to b1tch and moan.  They used to complain about WMS and Bally in the 90's as well.  Its easier to criticize than to create.

2.1 seems to be a hit!  

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.pinball/browse_thread/thread/dcc4b1c6cc616b25#