Quoted from jonny_eh

Are you seriously suggesting that cancer patients can just wish their cancer away, and therefore shouldn't bother with treatments recommended to them by their doctors? Please tell me I'm understanding you wrong.

Man, I wish life was that easy.

I would suggest that for sure.
The mind/body connection is soooo strong...and phenomenal...that we have not even come close to unleashing its full potential. And yes, people have successfully "wished" there illnesses away....Sorry, but I cant back that up with a reference, but I did learn this in one of my psychology classes at Carleton....the info is probably in the textbook.  

Quoted from Sparky

Sometimes, you just have to believe. Not everyone walks around with a camera or scientific equipment. And like I said, even if they did, someone would probably claim it is fake due to a photoshop job or something of the sort. Some people like to refure claims due to a possible scam, like you pointed out... but some just liek to tell people that they are wrong. THAT side of skepticism sucks.

Take the existence of aliens... No, I can't prove they exist. I have no proof of existence. BUT... with the vastness of the known universe, combined with the amount of stars (est. 350 billion) in our galaxy, multiplied by the probable amount of planetary bodies around those stars (for math's sake, let's say 10), multiplied by the possible amount of galaxies could it be that out of the possible estimated 100 billion galaxies in the known observable universe, that means that someone that refuses to believe that extra-terrestrials exist due to lack of proof, also believe that out of the possible 3.5 exp 25, or if you prefer, 35000000000000000000000000 possible stellar bodies, other than ours, NONE could carry a possible intelligent sentient life form. That is known as a mathematical no-brainer... to refute that a possibility exists with those numbers is being narrow-minded. A claim of us being alone in the universe is as close to impossible as you can get.

Thats the Drake Equation, for all you SETI math nerds out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

Quoted from jonny_eh

Are you seriously suggesting that cancer patients can just wish their cancer away, and therefore shouldn't bother with treatments recommended to them by their doctors? Please tell me I'm understanding you wrong.

Man, I wish life was that easy.

No Jon, what I was referring to was when medicine fails to fix the problem and the doctors give up but the patient lives and/or recovers completely. I have a close friend diagnosed and confirmed after multiple surgeries and biopsies of advanced ovarian cancer, given 3 months max, chemo failed to slow it down and she refused to give up, decided that she would not leave her three young children motherless despite the doctors prognosis. 12 years later she is still alive and cancer free - unexplainable by the human oncologists.

I also see it in my practice altho more frequently with no treatment by owners choice for many reasons (most common is not to make their pet suffer like humans do at the end  ) and even tho a disease is confirmed by biopsies, specialists etc the pet recovers disease free. Is it common, no. Is it uncommon, no. Do I still advocate full medical treatment and options - absolutely but unexplainable things happen. Why? - who knows but I am the first to always tell owners not to pick the final choice for my patient too quickly based only on a diagnosis (no matter how well substantiated) - because miracles (or whatever you want to call them) can happen.

And by the way, I am very impressed with Dave Brown doing an article on you. It is great to do something you believe in and you should be proud of your moment in the spotlight. Doesn't mean I won't throw in my comments and give you a hard time anyways

ME

PS By the way, I also believe in Rudolph and Santa but everybody knows I'm a big kid at heart!  

No one has ever been cured of cancer by wishing, at least it cannot be shown it was wishing that did it.

Cancer can back off on its own for no good reason, this is called 'spontaneous remission'. If a person sacrificed a chicken the day before spontaneous remission, they'd think that saved them. But can wishing actually shrink tumours? If so, no one should EVER DIE OF CANCER!!

What is wrong with you people? Are you saying that people who die of cancer deserve it? Or don't want to live enough? That is some insulting major bullshit right there. I have a family member who is very dear to me that has been battling cancer for the past 10 years or so and has just found out her latest rounds of radiation are not working, and there's not much else they can do. If or when she dies, you are basically saying that she decided to stop fighting? That she wanted to die? I'm getting pretty upset right now.

Quoted from jonny_eh

you are basically saying that she decided to stop fighting? That she wanted to die? I'm getting pretty upset right now.

No one...as far as I can tell....is saying that. I certainly am not, and only wish the best for anyone suffering from cancer.
All I was saying is that unexplainable things can, and have, happened to others. Were they good, bad, strong, spiritual, or whatever type people...I don't know...they were certainly lucky whatever the reason was that they got through their illness.
No personal attacks were ever meant...all I wanted to do was debate skepticism.

Who has time to be skeptical? There's way too many pinball machines out there that need to be fixed/played.

Quoted from sentinelking

Thats the Drake Equation, for all you SETI math nerds out there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

Jesus... and to say that a scientist has his name on that... that is just logic. I didn't know someone patented that. They should call it the Sparky equation.

Quoted from Sparky

Jesus... and to say that a scientist has his name on that... that is just logic. I didn't know someone patented that. They should call it the Sparky equation.

Carl Sagan and Frank Drake sort of beat you to it, man  

That being said, every theory has an alternative: See the Fermi Paradox

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox

Quoted from cooke

Who has time to be skeptical? There's way too many pinball machines out there that need to be fixed/played.

Well, if you're not skeptical, then you may end up giving your money to some dude in Ozzie Land that promises you a new MM. Just saying that being skeptical pays!

Also, maybe this metaphor will help explain my POV to this group better. Many of you here have high standards when it comes to things like playfields, touch ups, etc. Why not have high standards for what beliefs you choose to hold? And what better way to judge the quality of an idea than by measuring the evidence? At least I'm trying to bring it back to pinball!

Quoted from Hippochrome

...
All I was saying is that unexplainable things can, and have, happened to others. Were they good, bad, strong, spiritual, or whatever type people...I don't know...they were certainly lucky whatever the reason was that they got through their illness.
...

That's great that people over came an illness. It would be great if we could figure out how it actually happened! That way, we could maybe make it happen for other people. But if we just shrug our shoulders and say 'it was a miracle', then we'll never find out. For all we know, there could be some unknown property of some kinds of cancers where they implode once they reach a certain size. Maybe there could be a way for us to harness that property. But we should first try to come up with testable theories for these phenomena before we jump to the dead end that is the supernatural.

And when doctors say that someone only has a few months to live, they usually phrase it like "you have a 90% chance of dying within the next 6 months" or something like that. And ya, doctors can (and are) wrong, a LOT. That of course means that if someone lives longer than predicted, then it's probably a bit premature to jump to a supernatural conclusion. A much simpler explanation was that the doctor was wrong (have any of you guys made a mistake while on the job?), the lab equipment was bad, there was a lab mixup, the person was in the lucky 10% group, or a gazillion other mundane explanations.

Quoted from jonny_eh

Are you seriously suggesting that cancer patients can just wish their cancer away, and therefore shouldn't bother with treatments recommended to them by their doctors? Please tell me I'm understanding you wrong.

Man, I wish life was that easy.

My experience would show that mind over matter is quite strong and very effective. And this is concerning matters of life and death. Some of you know of what I speak.

To put it bluntly,  according to  the doctors and their experience with this specific situation my daughter was supposed to be in the hospital for well over a month but was home after about 2 weeks. The mind over matter part? She only thought of being home and nothing else. the Docs were amazed if not  confused.

Jon,

Congrats on the great article, superb stuff.  Although I’m a believer of various stuff, I think organized skepticism is a must to root out those who prey on the many who for a lack of better words, perhaps are too eager to believe in SOMETHING.  I wouldn’t mind tagging along with your group if that’s possible some day, I do find this fascinating!

My personal opinion:  To anyone who disagrees with what I say, understand it’s just that, an opinion.  You are allowed your own, as I, mine.

The first thing to consider is what makes us skeptics or believers?  Although upbringing and our life experiences can lead us down further one path or the other, I think we’re born with a primary sense towards one path or the other. Any parent who has multiple kids will tell you without a doubt kids are born with primary character traits which can be seen at a very young age (1 year old) which as they grow up directs them more down that path. Now kids are “believers” by nature, but it’s amazing to see how some kids questions more than others and that trait, the “questioner” is the type that usually leads towards the skeptic.


Whether you are a believer or a skeptic by nature, the starting point is the same: a matter of perspective and the end result (ie: if you believe or do not) is usually based on an interpretation of facts.  The problem here, is that interpretation is usually not 100% guarantee.  The supporter of faith will look at the reasons why it can’t be anything else, while the supporter of skepticism will not see sufficient evidence to support it as proof.

IMHO, I repeat IMHO, both sides at times have footing that’s shaky at best.  Let’s take a look at the medical community and clinical tests of drugs. IMHO, when it comes to diseases, I don’t believe there has ever been one clinical test that has been 100% conclusive, with a high percentage amount usually deemed as sufficient “proof” that the drug is effective.  IMHO, these tests if taken to their extreme conclusions show that:

A)     If the success-rate target is reached, the drug is assumed to work
B)     If the success-rate target is not reached, the drug is assumed to not work

Sounds simple right?  Now hold on!

A)     If the success-rate target is reached, but is not a 100% target, then assumption kicks in.  Let’s say 80% is reached, those poor 20% folks, was it “bad luck”?  Was it something they ate the past 20 years?  Was it the air they breathed?   No wait a second, maybe we’re looking at it wrong!  Maybe the 80% success folks, maybe THEY had good lick, ate something right that helped the drug, breathed better quality air, etc.
B)     If the success-rate target is not reached, that could mean 10% DID see improvement or were healed.  So what about them? Ask one of the 10 percenters and I guarantee they’ll likely see the drug they took as a miracle drug!  Too bad about the other 90%!
C)     What about placeboes?  What if they were used in 25% of all the patients and 10 % of them got better (which believe it or not, occurs!  So what about them?  Is the explanation 'spontaneous remission'?  Or was their belief a cure was there enough to maybe trigger some bio-chemical reaction that led the body to produce their own cure?  


Thus because we don’t know if we fit in the A, B or C category, the above can lead us to believe we never really know 100% if the drugs are supposed to work or 100% the drugs will not work or 100% that eating ice-cream won’t trigger something that will heal us, or 100% that eating ice-cream will certainly speed up our death.  We just don’t know.  Usually, body chemistry is sufficient evidence for many to understand why an “advil” can work for one person, but not for another. If that’s true, I’ve surmised that for some, our own misunderstood body-chemistry is capable in some cases to kick-start self healing through a very-scientific but as yet misunderstood manner.  Hopefully someday we’ll unlock this, thus many of us will stop losing loved-ones needlessly.


Jon, you brought up some good points, your personal issue with family made me recollect something. Without going into specifics (you know, protect the innocent…), I’ve had family members swear they’ve had a dead person lay their hands on their shoulders in their darkest moment of grief.  That’s very possible, the mind is a powerful thing.  Personally, a little jealousy crept in, I too needed that hand but it wasn’t to be, maybe because the hand was imagined, or maybe because I didn’t need it?  Who knows?  But because the person was alone, didn’t see anything and has no evidence, it’s easy to assume maybe he/she imagined it. But what about the other family member, no wait MEMBERS (they were two) who both saw a dead family member sitting in the chair in their own home, a week after the funeral?  We’re not talking about seeing someone from 100 feet away, we’re talking 10 feet away, in a normal lit room, and 2 people saw the same thing, and these two people, I would trust with my life.  Does this constitute proof that ghosts are real? Nope, but it provides me evidence enough that there was something there, something out of the ordinary.

Am I a believer?  Hmmm, let me put it this way.  My daughter has been ill for 6 months. Nothing appearing life threatening but for 6 months, she gets these regular coughing fits, where in the span of 90 minutes she’ll have coughed over two thousand times.  Yes, I did the math.  She’s been to CHEO 3 times, she’s seen a respirologist, taken allergy tests, she’s taken all kinds of different meds, so far nothing.  The coughing fits leave her without energy to the point that walking can be a chore.  She hasn’t been in school for 4 months + (thankfully homeshooling has proven successful in her case).  Anyway, my point?  If 5 people I know came to me tomorrow and said “Rob, if you streak down the street, she will be cured, I’ve seen it, I’m sure it works”.  Guess what? I’m streaking!  

There's no doubt there's nothing wrong with evidence Jon, can't argue that, but I never saw the incompatibilities some such as you see between evidence and faith.  In my warped mind, both are possible. My faith just happens to be considering evidence that is yet to come. We know so little as a species and imho, the need to measure NOW when we don't have all the tools is at times a bit presumptuous and even arrogant (that is NOT directed at you! but some really take skepticism the distance, to the point they become blind).

Rob