Hey all,

I have seen a few comments lately about some taking offense to taking profit after finding a deal.

My thoughts are as follows.
1. We should be fair to one another as we all will want to buy and sell games and parts over time.
2. If someone spends a bunch of time and effort to find a great deal then they should get paid for that time. Think of it this way, if they are selling at a fair price and you want it; it does not matter how much they paid to get it.
3. Most people post a MAACA price and a higher Kijiji price; I think this is a good practice.
4. At the end of the day on any purchase, buyer beware.

Later

As far as I'm concerned I have no issue with others selling something for whatever someone else
is willing to pay.  It's not my thing but I can live it.

What I take issue with is blatant misrepresentation, for example claiming something is HUO when
there is no evidence to prove that it is.  Even worse when there appears to be evidence to the
contrary.  I know when I sell/trade a machine, if it can't be viewed in advance I go to whatever
lengths necessary to represent the machine as accurately as possible, even if it's going to cost
me the sale/trade.

Quoted from silverball

What I take issue with is blatant misrepresentation, for example claiming something is HUO when
there is no evidence to prove that it is.  Even worse when there appears to be evidence to the
contrary.  I know when I sell/trade a machine, if it can't be viewed in advance I go to whatever
lengths necessary to represent the machine as accurately as possible, even if it's going to cost
me the sale/trade.

Fair enough - that's why I corrected it on the ad.  I should have said that it could have been HUO due to condition.  

I conceed on that point. your correct.

My view on the subject:

• If you list a game and it sells within a few hours, and the buyer is happy, then your asking price might be too low!  
  
• I hate selling, and would prefer to lose money versus having an endless stream of tire kickers.
  
• If you are great at scouring RSS feeds and get the lucky pin - congrats.   If you offer it for sale for a fair price on MAACA, thanks!
  
• If we're not friends, why in the world would I expect you to share in your good fortune.   I consider most MAACA members my friends.
  
• If you sell a game and its not as expected, and you don't live up to your word, then I hold a grudge for a long time.
  
• Pinball is a small world, and karma is a b****
  
• Brodeur's played his last Olympic game
  

Quoted from Tuborg

Brodeur's played his last Olympic game

Here's hoping... that was downright terrible!

Quoted from Jester

Most people post a MAACA price and a higher Kijiji price; I think this is a good practice.

Later

Personally, I believe this is wrong.  If you want $400, you may post for $450 etc.. because some like to bargain. However, most people are outraged at lowballers (I'm not) and don't even flinched at the highballers.  If you give me a good price because I am part of this forum, of course I will take it but if you ask $500 on kijiji and will allow me to have it for $350 then you highball and to me it is the same as lowballing...............you are looking for a big fish outside.  

Be realistic most of you don't know me and because I have signed up to this forum and put a few posts once in a while you will shave off $150 etc!!! I don't want to get into this debate again but price to get what you want.  If you price right it will sell.

keep on playing

Quoted from gmaranda

Personally, I believe this is wrong.  If you want $400, you may post for $450 etc.. because some like to bargain. However, most people are outraged at lowballers (I'm not) and don't even flinched at the highballers.  If you give me a good price because I am part of this forum, of course I will take it but if you ask $500 on kijiji and will allow me to have it for $350 then you highball and to me it is the same as lowballing...............you are looking for a big fish outside.  

Be realistic most of you don't know me and because I have signed up to this forum and put a few posts once in a while you will shave off $150 etc!!! I don't want to get into this debate again but price to get what you want.  If you price right it will sell.

keep on playing

The difference between a kijiji buyer and a maaca buyer is big, and I think it's worth charging extra to the kijiji buyer for your trouble. Kijiji buyers tend to not be pinball people (otherwise they'd be on maaca) and therefore will require more helping moving, setting it up, and even some tech support. If the kijiji buyer is a pinballer, but not on maaca, then they may be less trustworthy since they don't have a reputation to defend.

I've sold on both kijiji and maaca. My kijiji sales always have something wrong with them, while my maaca sales have always gone smooth (relatively).

I think Kijiji is a place to sell and get what you want for a machine, hopefully.

MAACA is a place I know I can move the machine either way.  And, of course I like to give dibs to people that I KNOW will appreciate the game.

People I know absolutely nothing of, have nobbody to vouch for them, dont know anybody who knows them etc., I am less inclined to want them to enter my home.  So, by pricing a little less on MAACA I know that for not having to deal with a complete unknown I will get a bit less but also take less risk.

Quoted from gmaranda

if you ask $500 on kijiji and will allow me to have it for $350 then you highball and to me it is the same as lowballing...............you are looking for a big fish outside.  

I don't quite see how asking more on Kijiji or Craigslist is insulting to a MAACA member, unless one considers oneself to be a member of the pinball price police force.  Besides, I doubt that many members here are guilty of "highballing" inside or outside this forum.  I think highballing" is a label reserved for sellers who ask for 40 or 50% above market price.  Who does that here ?


Be realistic most of you don't know me and because I have signed up to this forum and put a few posts once in a while you will shave off $150 etc!!! I don't want to get into this debate again but price to get what you want.  If you price right it will sell.

I could offer an MAACA discount only to members I know, or perhaps even only the members I like, but that would be pretty discriminating.  The only way to offer a discount is to offer it across the board so that no one gets bent out of shape about it.   Remember, if you don't feel that you are deserving of a discount just by virtue of being a member, then you can always contact the person through Kijiji or Craigslist and pay the big fish price.

What was said earlier was bang on :  The MAACA discount is for acknowledging that you are a savvy member of the pinball community and that you are going into the sale with your eyes open.  You actually are paying for that discount with your tacit consent that if you get a deal, you are not to come whining about a rubber that wasn't replaced or a fuse that blew in transit.  That can definitely be worth $100 or $200 when selling a pin.  

Quoted from gmaranda

Be realistic most of you don't know me and because I have signed up to this forum and put a few posts once in a while you will shave off $150 etc!!! I don't want to get into this debate again but price to get what you want.  If you price right it will sell.

The people at Chapters/Indigo don't really know me either.  But because I bought their card (for one year), I belong to their club and they give me discounts.  Same thing, isn't it?  MAACA is like a loyalty card of some sorts, for some people.

Quoted from wbradley

MAACA is a place I know I can move the machine either way.  And, of course I like to give dibs to people that I KNOW will appreciate the game.

People I know absolutely nothing of, have nobbody to vouch for them, dont know anybody who knows them etc., I am less inclined to want them to enter my home.  So, by pricing a little less on MAACA I know that for not having to deal with a complete unknown I will get a bit less but also take less risk.

Truer words not spoken (or something like that, I am king of the mixed metaphore).

I have lost money, made money both with friends and with acquaintances.  It all balances out to "zero" in the end.    

But I can count on one or two fingers the MAACA members who bought anything who "expected" any after sales support or service.  One of the benefits of dealing with competent colleagues is that we all aready know what to expect (well most of the time) before you get to the door with your cash.  And if it turns bad, well, we become more cautious the next time.

But you know, there are just some people who you WANT to deal better than fairly with, they just attract good karma.  And there are some people who rub you the wrong way.  

One thing I HAVE learned here on MAACA is DON'T BURN YOUR BRIDGES.  Everyone has likely had issues with each of us at one time or another (particularly in the virtual world) but I've found out by travelling around and meeting many members that they tend to be great people.  

I think someone complained about the "clique'ish" nature of some of the members and all the "inside" jokes.  Well, after a couple years reading posts, having the odd beer at a pinball get together, and selling machines back and forth, plus discussing stories of the horrid Kijiji purchases you've made .... you come to trust each other.

I love you all.  Really!

Wow obviously I touched a nerve   I don't think it is insulting to ask more outside this forum, I just don't do business this way AND I don't think any less of anyone. I simply don't do business this way.  I ask for what I believe is a fair price whether I know you or not.  Sorry but this is me.  However, I would PREFER to sell to someone on this forum since as it was stated it does have a better chance to be trouble free.  Furthermore, I would help any of you in any deals but I have never believed in a two level sale.

I recently sold a roof top carrier to a lady. She showed up alone and what do you think I did?  Yes, I got out and fully installed it on her car at minus 25 celsius.  I would have done the same thing to you or anyone (woman or not).  

It was nice discussing with you

take care

The art of sales - - I'm afraid there is not a right or wrong answer here.  

Some build there business of selling by dealing with integrity and keeping the utmost respect for the buyers.  They maintain a good reputation, many referrals and a clear conscience.

Others build their business by being dishonest, preying on the weak, misleading and trying to squeeze every last penny out of each poor unsuspecting victim.  

I would suggest that both of these options include selling at a profit.  I understand that this is a hobby and things can be different.  However collecting coins is a hobby as well.  Does that mean a collection 20 pre WWI nickels that I just recently found in my kid's piggy bank should only be sold for $1.00 ??   The world of sales turns around and around based on timing and opportunity.  If you find the right deal, the timing is great and you have an opportunity to buy and sell for more money - Great Job - and congratulations!

And just like in sales, I see no reason why anybody needs to tell anybody else how much money they are making or losing on a deal.    

I heard a slogan once on a commercial for a small US clothing store that stuck with me. I never really knew what it meant at the time.

It went something like this:

"An educated consumer is our best customer."

Quoted from gmaranda

   I would help any of you in any deals but I have never believed in a two level sale.

I recently sold a roof top carrier to a lady. She showed up alone and what do you think I did?  Yes, I got out and fully installed it on her car at minus 25 celsius.  I would have done the same thing to you or anyone (woman or not).  

I don't think there is a member on this forum who would install that rack for a friend but not for that lady.   That's got little to do with the sale really ~ that's about basic human compassion.  You felt she might need help,  so you gave it.  Everyone does that.

I think the problem with never engaging in two-level selling is that it never gives you the opportunity to make any of the members here feel like you are doing them a solid, and doing "solids" ( not the kind you do Sunday morning after your coffee and bran muffin ) is obviously a neat way to connect with others in the hobby.

If you are being totally honest, you DO believe in two-level selling, don't you ?   I'd be a little disappointed if you didn't, because then I would have to believe that you would sell something to your brother or to your mother, etc., for the same price as a complete stranger.  That would be really hard to believe.

So what you might be implying is that outside of your immediate family or really close circle of friends, there is no reason to distinguish between the buyers you know and the buyers you don't know.   I think the best sales are the ones where the buyer thinks they are special, and the MAACA incentives that are offered from time to time are a nice and easy way to do that.

This has been a community announcement.



  

What the f...  ?

Otto, you're waxed !

Quoted from silverball

What I take issue with is blatant misrepresentation, for example claiming something is HUO when
there is no evidence to prove that it is.  Even worse when there appears to be evidence to the
contrary.

Well at least the seller has stopped using fake (i.e.Inyourface) accounts to help sell his machines.  I see this as a positive step in the right direction.

Otto, I am not sure what the message was supposed to be in that video...Maybe that you shouldn't give a better deal to fellow pinball collectors/friends, and when you start a fire making pork chops you should get the f*** out if GI Joe says so?

Should you really care if you feel you're getting a good deal/fair deal? If you paid $500 for something that has a market value of $1500, and you want $1300 and I want it, why would I b****?

The ONLY people that ever b****, are those who are jealous that $800 isn't going into their pocket, when does the actual buyer complain? Never...
I've NEVER even questioned an asking price unless I felt it was way out of line, either I'm willing to pay it or I'm not. If I'm not, then I STFU and move along.

You don't want to pay an asking price, you don't have to. The "Wahh!" attitude is why I've decided I'll NEVER tell anyone what I paid for something, because if I wind up selling it...someone will remember even 5 years later "Hey but you only paid x for it".

DANGER, BAD LANGUAGE, and BAD GAS.  Don't play near kids or sensitive types.

Oh what is STFU?

Realistically there are two issues here

1 Selling for a profit

2. Boasting about a profit

I would guess that most people take exception to the latter because it is much harder to argue the former in any market.

Quoted from sinpin

The art of sales - - I'm afraid there is not a right or wrong answer here.  

Some build there business of selling by dealing with integrity and keeping the utmost respect for the buyers.  They maintain a good reputation, many referrals and a clear conscience.

Others build their business by being dishonest, preying on the weak, misleading and trying to squeeze every last penny out of each poor unsuspecting victim.  

  

I would say that the latter are the more financially successful of the two approaches, and the operating principal of most Fortune 500 companies.  (Bitter you say?)  

Quoted from ken_cinder

The ONLY people that ever b****, are those who are jealous that $800 isn't going into their pocket...I've decided I'll NEVER tell anyone what I paid for something, because if I wind up selling it...someone will remember even 5 years later "Hey but you only paid x for it".

Right on the mark.

Those are the same people who will call up a niave Kijiji seller after a sale is in progress to tell them they undersold, just trying to screw up a deal.  That practice stinks.

The issue at hand has nothing to do with profit and everything to do with Ethics.  

It's not about the money being made, it's about the way it was done.

This also isn't a one time occurrence with Tglover it's a pattern of unethical behavior.  

Quoted from ken_cinder

The ONLY people that ever b****, are those who are jealous that $800 isn't going into their pocket, when does the actual buyer complain? Never...
I've NEVER even questioned an asking price unless I felt it was way out of line, either I'm willing to pay it or I'm not. If I'm not, then I STFU and move along.

Wrong and there again is putting money before the hobby.

It's a moral and ethical issue not a financial one. Not to say buying and selling is unethical but the manner in which it is being done is in question. That and the motivation which appears to be soley money before community.

Quoted from ken_cinder

The "Wahh!" attitude is why I've decided I'll NEVER tell anyone what I paid for something, because if I wind up selling it...someone will remember even 5 years later "Hey but you only paid x for it".

That's something being a member of MAACA taught me quickly.. never boast about how cheap something was, 'cause it burns you in the end.  Frankly, I'm a cheap bastard in a community of cheap bastards.  

As far as the selling on Kijiji vs. selling on MAACA question goes, I tend to follow a simple rule.. sell on MAACA for a no BS, rock bottom, "This is what I want for it" price.  I'm a member of a forum pinball collectors.. they're not stupid.  People on Kijiji aren't necessarily stupid, but more often then not they don't know what they're buying (or at least, what it's worth), so I generally sell on Kijiji with a price "cushion".. because honestly, I've never had a Kijiji / Craigs sale go for what I was asking.  The single most common question I get... "What's your rock bottom price?".  To which I answer with my MAACA price.

.. wow that was long winded, hope it makes sense.

And yes.. I help them load the machine into their vehicle.  

I did have a fellow who dropped and smashed the machine off his truck when he got it home though.. sorry, but my support ends there    There's nothing I can do about that one.

Quoted from machine.slave

I did have a fellow who dropped and smashed the machine off his truck when he got it home though.. sorry, but my support ends there    There's nothing I can do about that one.

You sure it wasnt caused by all that handcream left on the pinball?  You are supposed to clean your hands, after a tough day of being a hand model.

i always brag about my first pin i bought.  that was before i was a member and it was a steal i didnt' know about.   they wanted $500 and i offered $350.  they said yes.  i was happy.  kept it for awhile and then sold and traded with twilightzone.  that was my first meeting of a member.  i told him up front how much i paid and that i found out later i got a grand deal.  he too ended up with it for less then book and was very happy.  i did tell him the game kind of sucked in gameplay.  he learned that later.  
  it was a dr.who and yes i would own one again due to the new dr.who show.
  wasn't trying to buy the pin to flip and make a profit.  but it started me on my way to collecting quite a few machines over the years.  

Dr. Who for $350!!?? That's REALLY cheap for ANY working DMD.

I paid $1400 for mine, fully working but with a bit of insert wear. Then I put in about $100.00 in LED's plus some lamps and rubber. Oh, and had the driver board fixed by a technician for about $100. inc shipping for an intermittent reset issue. Also I installed new launch and start buttons and now new pop bumper lamp sockets. Plus cleaning, lubricating mini playfield tracks, and finding and fixing possibly most everything that is likely to go wrong.  My total cost about 1650-1700.


Did I get hooped? Nah, we have really enjoyed the machine and when we are ready to sell I will; TRY to get my investment back excluding labour.

Yeah boasting about it and THEN turning around and selling it for say, double what you just threw in everyones face...bad form.

But just because I bought something at a steal of a price, doesn't mean I have to give it to the next guy for the same, even if it's part of a "Community".
Sure, that "Community member" would get a deal compared to market value, but I'm not outing myself $700 of $800 profit just "because" of the aforementioned, when he'd already be saving $200 off market value. (Given my previous post)

What I'm really talking about is say I bought a pin worth $1500, for $500. I didn't brag, it just came to be known for whatever reason. I decide I want to sell it, and I'm supposed to sell it for that same $500 or $600 when I know it's worth $1500? No, like I said...I'd cut $200-$300 off that market value, but I'm not inclined to pass along a deal that I found, just so someone else down the line can cut that nice profit when I did the work to get it originally.

Quoted from ken_cinder

Yeah boasting about it and THEN turning around and selling it for say, double what you just threw in everyones face...bad form.

But just because I bought something at a steal of a price, doesn't mean I have to give it to the next guy for the same, even if it's part of a "Community".
Sure, that "Community member" would get a deal compared to market value, but I'm not outing myself $700 of $800 profit just "because" of the aforementioned, when he'd already be saving $200 off market value. (Given my previous post)

I'd have to read all the posts carefully to make sure, but I don't believe anyone has posted that selling a machine for a big profit, even a 300% profit, is inherently wrong.  If you think someone has said as much, please quote them so I can be clear.

I am certainly fine with people not revealing how much they paid for a pin.  Although I have revealed my purchase price on more than one occasion, I don't believe I have volunteered the information.  Rather, I was put in the position of being made to feel sneaky if I did not cough it up.  If we are going to talk ethics, then we should make mention of the fact that I think it is a little presumptuous, if not a little rude, to ask someone what they paid for a pin.   I don't believe I have done that, although I can't be sure.  If I have done it, then I was rude for doing it.

Quoted from mrniceguy

I don't think there is a member on this forum who would install that rack for a friend but not for that lady.   That's got little to do with the sale really ~ that's about basic human compassion.  You felt she might need help,  so you gave it.  Everyone does that.

I think the problem with never engaging in two-level selling is that it never gives you the opportunity to make any of the members here feel like you are doing them a solid, and doing "solids" ( not the kind you do Sunday morning after your coffee and bran muffin ) is obviously a neat way to connect with others in the hobby.

If you are being totally honest, you DO believe in two-level selling, don't you ?   I'd be a little disappointed if you didn't, because then I would have to believe that you would sell something to your brother or to your mother, etc., for the same price as a complete stranger.  That would be really hard to believe.

So what you might be implying is that outside of your immediate family or really close circle of friends, there is no reason to distinguish between the buyers you know and the buyers you don't know.   I think the best sales are the ones where the buyer thinks they are special, and the MAACA incentives that are offered from time to time are a nice and easy way to do that.

This has been a community announcement.



  

Ok you got me on this one...........Of course I would sell lower to a family member.  However,  I usually ask for my rock bottom price right at the beginning.  I will however, sometime ask just a bit more if I believe people will deal a bit, it gives people the feeling they got a better deal.  I do the same thing when I buy.  Of course, I get more and more the feeling of belonging to this group even though I only have met a handful of you.  

Some have written on this thread that no one highballs around here and I beg to differ (a lot) and as far as I am concerned it is OK because I can either make a different offer or do the most powerful thing in the world...................ignore you ad   Remember that anyone can join this forum and some do it to make money and again it is OK with me.  I guess what really bothers most people is knowing about it.  I acquired pinballs for the hobby because I like it that is all and let me state this: if you buy something for $5 and you sell it to me for $400 knowing that it is worth around $600 do I really care, not at all.

On the other hand, you can only burn your bridges once and what goes around comes around!!!  As for making people feel good or solid I do it in other ways such as and read this:  If you find a pin in my region (kijiji or something else) but you can't get to it because of distance etc. I will be more than happy to pick it up for you and hold it for you in the meantime until you can either pick it up or arrange for something.  

This is in my mind, an example, of what hobbyist do to one another but that doesn't mean we will hold hands while taking hot showers

Enough typing............as always it is good to exchange with you "mrniceguy"

I can't disagree with anything you said in that last post, gmaranda.

I look forward to exchanging "solids" with you.
( That just sounds wrong, doesn't it ?)

Ok everyone knows this form was started because of my recent sale.... well here goes the honest truth point blank.  Like it or not it's who I am and I'm not changing.  Think me a bad person, oh well, I'll get over it, since I'm sure I won't ever see most of you in person (and most of the ones I have met I get along nicely with).  

1. Over the past year or two I have not been treated very nicely by some in this "Community" (whether it be by my actions or not.
2. I have successfully bought and sold to Maaca Members (without regret), and will continue to do so if the price is right.
3. I have often posted on this board machines that I am either not interested in, don't have the cash to afford, or are not in my area.
4. I have offered Maaca Member discounts on past machine sales
3. I have recently closed my second business and now have no income for the hobby.
4. I currently have two spaces left in my basement that are a "HUGE BLACK HOLE" to me.
5. I continue to search daily for pinball sales from outside the comunity.
6. I found a pin for sale at a great price, and paid that price for it (I could have offered her less and I'm sure she would have taken it).
7. I played the machine and it wasn't to my liking.
8. I repaired and quick shopped the machine
9. I listed the machine on Maaca, and Mr. Pinball (and was about to do Kijiji & Craigslist but had numerous enquiries already)
10. I was upfront and told everyone that I found the pin, since the lady said there were at least 30 other emails about this machine (I just happened to be first - and right around the corner from her)
11. I knew the machine was worth more then $500
12. I saw an oppertunity to make some cash so that I could continue in the hobby (and not be stagnant)
13. Someone called me out on my purchase price (after all it was still on Kijiji), so I admitted it to be straight up.
14. I had an offer for a Bow & Arrow plus my $500 so I took it.
15. It was not about money, it was about staying in the hobby the only way I could.
16. All those who have a problem with this transaction are the same people who have issues with everything else I do...?
17. After being so warmly welcomed into this community, I think I will sell at the price I want, and you can sell to me at a price you want- I don't need a "Community Favor" just the price you've asked.
18. I enjoy belonging to this board to see suggestions, advice, classifieds, and the odd banter, and I would like to continue being apart of this board.
19. I have met some great people here, but as with life there are also the assholes (who I'm sure in turn think I'm an a**hole too...?


So basically, I saw an oppertunity, I was first at the door, I paid the asking price, I didn't like the machine, I offered it for sale, I was called out on my purchase price vs. asking price, I sold/traded the machine for a large profit, and I have been beaten up ever since.

Basically all I have to say is.... GROW UP GUYS... there is more to life then this.

(PS: I will not be responding to any more posts on this topic.  If you want to tell me something PM me.)

Sorry to all those who really could care less.

I for one just want to say that I enjoyed the thread because it gave me a chance to try out a couple of new philosophies, and I like to do that kind of stuff.  I liked it as an excuse to debate some trivialities and spice up an otherwise boring time at the computer.  However, I had long forgotten the origins of the thread and as a result, none of my remonstrances were aimed at anyone in particular, and certainly not at any incident in particular.  I'm way too much of a pusssy, uh, I mean gentleman to target anyone like that.

Quoted from mrniceguy

I for one just want to say that I enjoyed the thread because it gave me a chance to try out a couple of new philosophies, and I like to do that kind of stuff.  I liked it as an excuse to debate some trivialities and spice up an otherwise boring time at the computer.  However, I had long forgotten the origins of the thread and as a result, none of my remonstrances were aimed at anyone in particular, and certainly not at any incident in particular.  I'm way too much of a pusssy, uh, I mean gentleman to target anyone like that.

Ditto   except for the "new philosophies" and the "pusssy" stuff  

Keep on playing

This is why i prefer trading pins over selling pins.. everyone's happy in the end.  

Quoted from TGlover

4. I currently have two spaces left in my basement that are a "HUGE BLACK HOLE" to me.

Well the choices for one of those spaces seems pretty obvious to me..  

(sorry, just trying to lighten the mood)

In all fairness.. if the buyer/trader of the Blackwater 100 was happy in the end, then the point is kinda moot.. if there's one thing we should be slamming it's the other 30 emails the original seller received after Terrance.. chances are, most of them were offering more after they found out Terrance was on his way.  THAT, I definitely hate.. and that's happened to all of us, and is certainly something we can all agree on (unless you're one of the scumbags that do it.. if so, please leave this forum RIGHT NAO!).