If I see one more stupid car flag I'm gonna go postal.   I hate the world cup and all the flag-waving, misdirected patriotism that goes with it.  How people who have lived and worked in one country all their lives can derive any sense of accomplishment or self-worth over the fact that a team from their "homeland" ( which they may have never even visited ) is beyond me.

Thank goodness it's only every 4 years.  

Okay, I've got my asbestos suit on.

Flame on !

I just hate soccer period........and I am italian. I would rather do gardening (which is the activity I hate most) than have to watch another excruciatingly boring soccer game.

Quoted from mrniceguy

If I see one more stupid car flag I'm gonna go postal.   I hate the world cup and all the flag-waving, misdirected patriotism that goes with it.  How people who have lived and worked in one country all their lives can derive any sense of accomplishment or self-worth over the fact that a team from their "homeland" ( which they may have never even visited ) is beyond me.

Thank goodness it's only every 4 years.  

Okay, I've got my asbestos suit on.

Flame on !

Maybe some people just don't like hockey. Maybe they'd wave Canadian flags if our team qualified.

I generally find all sports exercises in tedium to watch.  All of it seems pointless to me, including the absolute zealot like fervor of hockey fans.  I don't find the world cup any more or less annoying then any other sporting related event.  

Quoted from Vengeance

I generally find all sports exercises in tedium to watch.  All of it seems pointless to me, including the absolute zealot like fervor of hockey fans.  I don't find the world cup any more or less annoying then any other sporting related event.  

Didn't you get a little misty-eyed when a fellow Canadian won the Canadian Pinball Championship last fall ?  

Quoted from mrniceguy

Didn't you get a little misty-eyed when a fellow Canadian won the Canadian Pinball Championship last fall ?  

The major difference there being I was a participant rather then a spectator.  Obviously I'm going to be passionate about something I'm actively participating in at that level of competition.

When was your last game in the NHL Glen

Also, pinball's a real sport. It's not just kicking a stupid ball around or putting rubber pucks into nets!

Quoted from jonny_eh

Also, pinball's a real sport. It's not just kicking a stupid ball around or putting rubber pucks into nets!

Never, have I ever called pinball a sport, because it's not a sport, it's a skill.  

I like to chew on tinfoil.

I'm with you there, Glenn... I was driving down the 410 today on my way to work, and some jackass had two FULL SIZED flags tied to a pole on the back of his pickup truck, which were supported by some classy green rope tied to the front of the box.  Looked ridiculous and I can guarantee it wasn't safe (especially at 120km/h).  It should be interesting when one of those flags rips off and completely blinds the driver behind him.

My family's from England so I secretly support their team.. but I don't really need to be loud and proud about it.  I'm Canadian.  

Quoted from Vengeance

Never, have I ever called pinball a sport, because it's not a sport, it's a skill.  

This reminds me of a hilarious scene from a movie called The Hammer. This guy is down on his luck and staying at his Nicaraguan buddy's place. A bunch of his Nicaraguan friends are there.

After a discussion about the hardship they had in their country and the violence that made them leave, the discussion switches to the olympics. All the Nicaraguans are drinking their beer and chanting VIVA NICARAGUA.

His quote: "Great... you guys are chanting for a country for which you almost gave your life to get out of... that makes sense."


How about cheering for... um... I don't know... Canada maybe?   But then again, they are not in the world cup...

I`m Scottish so I have a reason to face palm.

Is it just me but......

Pinball's not a sport, or a skill.....it's just an idle, and expensive toy. Its like calling Labyrinth a sport. Soccer and Hockey are sports that take athletic skill (running/skating, teamwork, practice, conditioning). Not a pin-gulp, slippers, and some Windex)

I also don't have a problem with people supporting the country they have a heritage tie to...even if its like 4 generations removed. Keep waving those flags Soccer loving people!

So there! Now I'm gonna play some WCS94 while watching the World Cup....where's my slippers, and England beer mug?

Quoted from Hippochrome

Its like calling Labyrinth a sport

Quoted Text

Not a pin-gulp, slippers, and some Windex  

I suggest Lysol or Scope, the taste is better*






*This post is not intended to offend those of Native or Aboriginal ancestry and the poster apologizes for any association or perceived inuendo however unintended.

Quoted from Hippochrome

Pinball's not a sport, or a skill.....it's just an idle, and expensive toy. Its like calling Labyrinth a sport.

I've got to argue that point.  I'm sure there are some Labyrinth players who are very good at it and would also consider it a skill.

But how is pinball playing not a skill?  There is a very obvious skill difference between the casual and competitive player.  So if you don't consider it a skill that how to you explain why some people are better are pinball then others?  

There is skill involved in order to play well, hand eye coordination, fast reflexes, the ability to remember complex rule sheets.  If there was no skill involved then it wouldn't matter if you were chimping away  on both flippers or aiming every shot as the result should be the same.  But because there is skill, the player that does chimp away on the buttons will not score as well as the player who actually has the skill to play the game.  

Really all you need to do is watch the Pinball 101 Dvd and then try and tell me there is no skill in pinball.  

Quoted from Vengeance

I've got to argue that point....

Meh...sure people can can good at pinball, but a skill???? Dont think so. Like saying someone is skilled at Call of Duty, or GTA. They are just toys to pass the time and have a few laughs.

A skill is a unique talent/aptitude that someone has (Wayne Gretzky was skilled at hockey, Bill Gates was skilled at figuring out computer stuff....only they could ever reach the level they got to in their field.

Pinball? Don't think so...
Anyone, if they practice enough, can be a great pinball player...even Joey Chimpallot has the potential. Joey however, will never make the NHL or design a successful computer company, no matter how hard he tries. Well, maybe in EA Sports NHL2010...he's quite skilled in that

So your argument is that a skill can't be learned then?  Checking the definition, I get "the  ability,  coming  from  one's  knowledge,  practice,  aptitude,  etc.,  to  do  something  well" or "A skill is the learned capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both.".  I'd say that talent is inate (and not learned), and since talent can influence the development of a skill there are definitely examples of different learning curves for acquiring said skills.  Most people also reach a point where it becomes difficult or impossible for them to develop a skill beyond a certain point for various reasons.  Those examples you mentioned just had shorter learning curves, and higher plateaus.  

Pinball is definitely a game of skill though-isn't there legal precedent for it   Nobody is arguing that playing Pinball is a very useful skill in the grand scheme of things, but it's still a skill that is admired by a small group.

Quoted from Hippochrome

I also don't have a problem with people supporting the country they have a heritage tie to...even if its like 4 generations removed. Keep waving those flags Soccer loving people!

While I disagree with you on the skill thing -- I think pinball is a game of skill -- I totally agree with the above. Let's be honest, when we cheer for the Sens/Habs/Toronto, etc. who are we really cheering for? A bunch of hired guns with very few (if any) of the players actually being from the city. So where's the harm in cheering your country of heritage during the World Cup? None, provided you don't riot when they win  

Duane

Yes good pinball playing requires skill.  However, it is not recognized as a sport any more than darts is.

A sport is a lot more physical. Aside from sumo wrestling, I dont know of any other sports where the successful players can be out of shape. The overall physical requirements are too great.

So, do you have to be in shape physically to be a good pinball player? I think not.

Quoted from wbradley

A sport is a lot more physical. Aside from sumo wrestling, I dont know of any other sports where the successful players can be out of shape. The overall physical requirements are too great.

Golf.

So who the hell are you supposed to cheer if your "heritage" is an amalgam of 3 or more european countries? All of them? What if two of those countries are playing against each other?  

Quoted from Hippochrome

Meh...sure people can can good at pinball, but a skill???? Dont think so. Like saying someone is skilled at Call of Duty, or GTA. They are just toys to pass the time and have a few laughs.

A skill is a unique talent/aptitude that someone has (Wayne Gretzky was skilled at hockey, Bill Gates was skilled at figuring out computer stuff....only they could ever reach the level they got to in their field.

Pinball? Don't think so...
Anyone, if they practice enough, can be a great pinball player...even Joey Chimpallot has the potential. Joey however, will never make the NHL or design a successful computer company, no matter how hard he tries. Well, maybe in EA Sports NHL2010...he's quite skilled in that

You're confusing 'skill' with 'talent'. You're born with talent, you develop skill.

And I disagree in another sense too. Not anyone can be good at pinball. Some people just don't have the coordination.
Conversely, there was a guy at the Toronto Gameroom Show that made it to the Division B semi-finals, and it was the first weekend he ever played pinball. He must've had some natural talent, but he got knocked out of the semis because the other players had more skill.

And a learned ability doesn't have to be 'useful' to be a skill. I would argue that being good at Halo is a skill. Or Starcraft even. In South Korea they televise Starcraft matches, have betting scandals, leagues, etc. When someone is better at something than someone else, it's due to a combination of more talent or more skill.

Quoted Text

Golf.

John Daly ia a very atypical pro athlete. Not to mention a very spotty record. He probably has some of the best natural talent ever ,but his poor work ethic and substance abuse has made it impossible for him to sustain a steady professional standing in the PGA.

Quoted from TwilightZone

Let's be honest, when we cheer for the Sens/Habs/Toronto, etc. who are we really cheering for? A bunch of hired guns with very few (if any) of the players actually being from the city. So where's the harm in cheering your country of heritage during the World Cup? None, provided you don't riot when they win  

I think the main difference between cheering for your "home" country and cheering for a hockey team from a particular city is one of autonomy.  Although some people probably support teams from other countries, I imagine the most fervant flag-wavers have familial ties with that country and automatically support that team.  Sort of like religion ~ sure, some people question their religion, but most people just go along with the religion that was imposed upon them from an early age.  Whereas it is much more likely that someone from Toronto might still be a Habs, Sens or Wings fan.  

My philosophy is not for everyone.  I hate Nationalism in any form.  Ignoring the obvious hypocrisy of cheering for a country you chose to leave ( or your forefathers chose to leave ),  I think flag-waving is an unflattering human activity.   It is a form of judgement and arrogance, even though it is often harmless.

And on the other issue, if we are voting.... pinball = skill.

Pinball is a skill game. I would equate it to pool, sharp shooting or bowling etc. It's not a sport. Sport involves activity. Tapping two buttons is hardly activity unless your Rick Stetta.

I hate soccer too,my only wish is the France team win the championship quickly

I love this thread! My 2 cents...typing this post requires lots of skill; I have to hit the correct keys in the correct order without hitting other keys at the same time

Those &%$#$% flags are annoying; however it is almost always fun to watch anyone that is the best at what they do; whether that be playing pinball or watching a Football match. Life is tedious and we all find ways to entertain ourselves. Simply put we eat and sleep and maybe procreate; everything else just fills the time. I like to play pinball, travel , play sports, play with my wife , eat good food, see crazy stuff, and take long walks on the beach…OK not the last one.

Anyways I get the resentment but I will watch some matches and I am sure I will be entertained. I like the crazy fans too!

PS Vengence, if you film yourself playing pinball and post it, I’ll watch that too!

I guess this is the wrong forum to trivialize pinball....what was I thinking

p.s. I say playing darts takes more skill than playing pinball

Quoted from Hippochrome

p.s. I say playing darts takes more skill than playing pinball

How??

Quoted from Jester

Vengence, if you film yourself playing pinball and post it, I’ll watch that too!

Ask and yee shall receive

http://www.youtube.com/user/VengeanceMM

Not enough goals for me.

If Canada qualified for the World Cup I would definitely cheer for Canada first and the Netherlands second but since they din't qualify (AGAIN) I have no choice but to cheer on my second favorite. Hup Holland!
Just because I live in Ottawa does that mean I have to cheer for the Senators? No way! I'm a Canadiens fan and I will always be a Canadiens fan eventhough I don't live in Montreal. I saw a lot of Blackhawk flags on cars in Ottawa during their cup run. Should they not be alowed to cheer and express their passion for their team? I have no problem with that.

Quoted from heinekenlvr

If Canada qualified for the World Cup I would definitely cheer for Canada first and the Netherlands second but since they din't qualify (AGAIN) I have no choice but to cheer on my second favorite. Hup Holland!
Just because I live in Ottawa does that mean I have to cheer for the Senators? No way! I'm a Canadiens fan and I will always be a Canadiens fan eventhough I don't live in Montreal. I saw a lot of Blackhawk flags on cars in Ottawa during their cup run. Should they not be alowed to cheer and express their passion for their team? I have no problem with that.

Exactly my point.  You might cheer for the Habs even if the Sens are still in the playoffs, but no one from Portugal is going to root for England or any other team as long as Portugal is still playing.  The former is considered acceptable while the latter would be considered treason.

Quoted from Vengeance

How??

The "active" action of throwing a sharp little object on target (at a very small target, on less).

I would call pinball a more "passive" action. Your only connection to the game is two little buttons, and you can randomly chimp the flippers and still achieve a good score....and before you say it....nudging doesn't count (nudging is cheating)

Try randomly chucking darts at a board...odds are the person wont even hit the board.

Quoted from Hippochrome

The "active" action of throwing a sharp little object on target (at a very small target, on less).

I would call pinball a more "passive" action. Your only connection to the game is two little buttons, and you can randomly chimp the flippers and still achieve a good score....and before you say it....nudging doesn't count (nudging is cheating)

Try randomly chucking darts at a board...odds are the person wont even hit the board.

Adam is going to rip this argument all to pieces....I'll let him have the honour.

Quoted from mrniceguy

Adam is going to rip this argument all to pieces....I'll let him have the honour.

Maybe...but he'd still be wrong  

Personally, I love football.  Ti-Cats are my favourite because I was born in Hamilton.  Go Cats Go!  Win the World Cup!  Score a homer!  Go Cats Go!

Quoted from Hippochrome

....nudging doesn't count (nudging is cheating)

You lost the argument at this point. Nudging is a skill -- as is being able to consistently hit what you are aiming for. It's amazing to watch good players nudge a pinball.

Like Glen, I'll let Adam tear you apart.  

Duane

Quoted from McMean

Personally, I love football.  Ti-Cats are my favourite because I was born in Hamilton.  Go Cats Go!  Win the World Cup!  Score a homer!  Go Cats Go!

Oh crap! Canadian Football is way worse than soccer. At least there are more than a half dozen teams in WCS and they are comprised of the best of the best. CFL sucks!

Duane

You're just sad because Ottawa can't even support a CFL team.  Losers!!  Oh wait, I'm a Ti-Cat fan....

Quoted from TwilightZone

Oh crap! Canadian Football is way worse than soccer. At least there are more than a half dozen teams in WCS and they are comprised of the best of the best. CFL sucks!

Duane

Quoted from McMean

You're just sad because Ottawa can't even support a CFL team.  Losers!!  Oh wait, I'm a Ti-Cat fan....

Go Jets! CFL is total crap football. I'd rather a MLS team then Ottawa join that brutal league again... I give CFL 10years before it folds

Quoted from TwilightZone

You lost the argument at this point. Nudging is a skill -- as is being able to consistently hit what you are aiming for. It's amazing to watch good players nudge a pinball.

Nahhh. Nudging is for pinball players who are out of control....Lyman Sheats doesn't nudge

The whole concept of nudging is to keep the ball IN control, and it's a LEARNED SKILL. Just wailing on a machine really won't do much for you, but the right push, nudge, shove or shake can turn an average schlub into a pretty decent pinball player.

If you think pinball is more chance than skill, then you haven't played enough pinball.

Do you even play pinball, or do you just look at the pretty colors??

Quoted from Hippochrome

you can randomly chimp the flippers and still achieve a good score....

Oh really!  Care to put that to the Test??  Next time I'm in Ottawa, we'll play $20 a game, you can sit there and chimp on the flippers and I'll play regularly and we will see who will comes out on top, sound fair?  I mean if you thinking you can chimp away on the flippers and still get a good score in comparison to aiming your shots then I'd assume you'd be all over this.

Quoted Text

nudging doesn't count (nudging is cheating)

!!  Since when??!!  Pinball was FOUNDED on nudging!!  Remember those old flipperless machines that pinball spawned from, what to hell do you think people were doing on them when there was no flipper.  Oh wait I forgot you don't actually play pinball you stand there and chimp away and get distracted by the pretty colors.  

Quoted Text

Try randomly chucking darts at a board...odds are the person wont even hit the board.

Try randomly chimping the flippers and I guarantee you will lose every single time to anyone with even the remotest level of Skill, that's right there is that SKILL thing again that's involved in pinball.  

Quoted Text

Maybe...but he'd still be wrong  

Maybe in your head, but the vast majority disagrees with you, but hey my offer of $20 a game stands next time I'm in Ottawa, I mean if pinball requires no skill and you can chimp away, it should be easy money right??

Quoted from Hippochrome

Nahhh. Nudging is for pinball players who are out of control....Lyman Sheats doesn't nudge

Bull SH!T

Have you ever even watched Lyman play!  Stop talking out your a$$ if you've never even seen the dude play, he has nudging down to a science.

Alright! Soccer is on! I could use a good nap. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Quoted from Vengeance

Bull SH!T

Have you ever even watched Lyman play!  Stop talking out your a$$ if you've never even seen the dude play, he has nudging down to a science.

Watch an interview or two with him...the one when he brings his Addams Family to the morning talk show. He says that he doesn't nudge. He captures the ball, and aims his shots.

Yes the old bar machines were all about nudging...then Harry Williams added "tilt" to stop the cheaters. Since then cheaters just kept on nudging, but in moderation.

Keep your $20...we all know your a excellent pinball player...practice practice practice   

BTW I agree with the stupid mentality people get during the world cup. I should be mad that those hand-ball cheats France got in and Ireland didn't. It's just a game, and people get so worked up and go insane over it for the dumbest reasons.

Oh and Daniel....CFL blows, I played CFL rules ball for 4 years, it's a**.

Quoted from Hippochrome

Watch an interview or two with him...the one when he brings his Addams Family to the morning talk show. He says that he doesn't nudge. He captures the ball, and aims his shots.

Yes the old bar machines were all about nudging...then Harry Williams added "tilt" to stop the cheaters. Since then cheaters just kept on nudging, but in moderation.

Keep your $20...we all know your a excellent pinball player...practice practice practice   

BS

A - I've watched the man play, he nudges, he has it down to an exact science.  While it's not as gratuitous as some people he defiantly nudges
B - I think I've seen that video and I don't remember him at all saying he never nudges.

By that logic if Williams thought it was cheating, then why didn't he make it so that it was an automatic thing rather then an adjustable feature.  Tits are always adjustable to make the tilt more or less sensitive.  It was implemented to stop people from picking the machine up and bringing the ball back into play, the whole reason it's adjustable is to ALLOW the player some leeway when it comes to nudging.  

I honestly wonder if you believe the crap that comes out of your mouth or your just playing Devils advocate, first it's the NHL is fixed and now it's pinball has no skill, you are either nuts or just trying to be a sh!t disturber.  

Quoted from Vengeance

I honestly wonder......  

Watch the video again....it happened, he said it, deal with it!

Man you get aggressive over fun debates...relax....I now see why you have so many conflicts on this site. My opinion is this, that, and the other thing. Feel free to disagree...but seriously, do you need to make personal attacks in every response?

i.e. "Do you even play pinball, or do you just look at the pretty colors??"
      "Oh wait I forgot you don't actually play pinball you stand there and chimp away and get distracted by the pretty colors"
      "Stop talking out your a$$"
      "I honestly wonder if you believe the crap that comes out of your mouth"
       "you are either nuts or just trying to be a sh!t disturber"  

p.s I have the Pinball 101 DVD.....Its whole purpose is to teach "ANYONE" to be a Pinball Wizard. Just learn these simple tricks and you can beat the best, etc, etc, etc.

p.p.s. New bet for $20....I'll get a monkey, heck even a chimp for arguments sake, make them watch the Pinball 101 video, and then practice practice practice. Then watch that primate "sure play a mean pinball"!

Actually I think they really refined tilt systems to be even a bigger part of the gameplay with counts and warnings. It really is very much part of the game particularly when they have warnings so the bob can be set to occaisionally make contact letting the player know his limits.

Look at a game like Dr. Dude, one of the awards from the saucer is "Add 1 or 2 (I forget) Tilt Warnings!" Tell me it is not supposed to be nudged when they award more Tilt Warnings!

Dave

Quoted from pins only

Look at a game like Dr. Dude, one of the awards from the saucer is "Add 1 or 2 (I forget) Tilt Warnings!" Tell me it is not supposed to be nudged when they award more Tilt Warnings!

Dave

That's cool. Never seen that type of award on a pinball.

Quoted from pins only

Look at a game like Dr. Dude, one of the awards from the saucer is "Add 1 or 2 (I forget) Tilt Warnings!" Tell me it is not supposed to be nudged when they award more Tilt Warnings!

Dave

Exactly. I guess my only complaint would be when someone sets a machine that you can't breath on it or it will tilt. To me this is nonsense even if it is under the guise of "tournament play". F' "tournament play" the game was made to be nudged and if your ADD is too acute that you can't sit through a tournament with reasonable machine settings, get the hell out and try Parcheesi instead.

I'm going to be a devil's advocate for a second, but didn't the Rocky and Bullwinkle game reward bang backs? Aren't those considered cheating?

My true thoughts: I think nudging is indeed quite an important part of pinball, that's why the video game simulations almost always include it. I'm not very good at nudging, but I've been practicing it more the last couple months and have gotten a lot better. It isn't cheating if it's available to everyone.

Quoted Text

Tits are always adjustable to make the tilt more or less sensitive.

My mind is in the gutter yet once again!

Quoted from jonny_eh

I'm going to be a devil's advocate for a second, but didn't the Rocky and Bullwinkle game reward bang backs? Aren't those considered cheating?

I think it is Tales From the Crypt that, if you go through the outlane, then score points off anything, the DMD has a great animation and says something like "Great Death Save" It is very cool and also supports the fact that Nudging is allowed and maybe even Death Saves too!

Dave

Quoted from ken_cinder

IMAGE DELETED because poster is a Douche

BTW I agree with the stupid mentality people get during the world cup. I should be mad that those hand-ball cheats France got in and Ireland didn't. It's just a game, and people get so worked up and go insane over it for the dumbest reasons.

Oh and Daniel....CFL blows, I played CFL rules ball for 4 years, it's a**.

You know what Ken, I have sat back for about 6 months constantly watching and reading your posts, thinking to myself this guy is a bit of a douche; always has something to say, usually negative, or with chest puffed feathers fully extended.  Sometimes I think trying to funny but usually failing large for the most part.

That said I have ignored it, because hey I am an a**hole too from time to time. But I need to call you out as a douche now. Sorry

Your a douche that is all

If you're not nudging, you're not really 'playing' pinball. If you honestly believe that nudging is cheating, I'd venture to say that you're just not very good at it and are using the whole "nudging is cheating" thing as an excuse for your own poor playing skills.

Nudging (and doing it well) takes skill and practice and is what separates the good players from the noobs. I'll bet the *vast* majority of pinball hobbyists would agree.  

EDIT: Let the people decide:
http://archive.maaca.org/s107351202.onlinehome.us/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1276524925/s-new/

Quoted from jonny_eh

didn't the Rocky and Bullwinkle game reward bang backs?

It acknowledges them, but no points are given. It just says "Nice Death Save on the DMD and plays the death march music for a few bars.

Edit: Just tried it and it also says "Good Boy Sherman!"

Quoted from Hippochrome

Nahhh. Nudging is for pinball players who are out of control....Lyman Sheats doesn't nudge

I can't agree with this.. nudging was part of the game long before flippers were

Quoted from jonny_eh

I'm going to be a devil's advocate for a second, but didn't the Rocky and Bullwinkle game reward bang backs? Aren't those considered cheating?

Not sure about R&B, but JP rewards death saves

Sounds like it may by a DE thing.  

I just recently learned how to death save, it's pretty funny to do.  

Generally the legality behind it in Tournaments has more to do with people not wanting their machines abused and the fact that if you've drained you shouldn't be getting your ball back.  You can generally get away with it without tilting on a number of games because of a flaw in the way the software recognizes tilts.  On most games, especially on newer sterns you can get away with one really big nudge and not get a tilt because the software won't throw 2 warnings and a tilt all at once.  You can hammer a machine once, and get your two warnings but it wont throw the tilt until after the plumb bob stops hitting the ring, once it stops hitting the ring, the next time it hits the ring you will get a tilt.  

It's easiest to do on carpet and you need a bit of space as you really need to slide the machine a few inches to the right to get it to work properly.  

If anybody "death saved" in my basement, they'd get their a** kicked

Quoted from Vengeance

Sounds like it may by a DE thing.  

I just recently learned how to death save, it's pretty funny to do.  

Generally the legality behind it in Tournaments has more to do with people not wanting their machines abused and the fact that if you've drained you shouldn't be getting your ball back.  You can generally get away with it without tilting on a number of games because of a flaw in the way the software recognizes tilts.  On most games, especially on newer sterns you can get away with one really big nudge and not get a tilt because the software won't throw 2 warnings and a tilt all at once.  You can hammer a machine once, and get your two warnings but it wont throw the tilt until after the plumb bob stops hitting the ring, once it stops hitting the ring, the next time it hits the ring you will get a tilt.  

It's easiest to do on carpet and you need a bit of space as you really need to slide the machine a few inches to the right to get it to work properly.  

Isn't it harder to move a machine on carpet? My machines don't budge.

Quoted from jonny_eh

Isn't it harder to move a machine on carpet? My machines don't budge.

Guess it  could depend on the carpet, but I've always found it much easier to slide a game around on carpet, but I've never tried it on a really thick carpet, usually it's the thinner stuff.  

B1 - You are totally wrong.


It's "you're" not "your".


(this is nothing more then a +1 post)

Quoted from cooke

If you're not nudging, you're not really 'playing' pinball. If you honestly believe that nudging is cheating, I'd venture to say that you're just not very good at it and are using the whole "nudging is cheating" thing as an excuse for your own poor playing skills.

3rd place overall in the OPL season...and I missed a league night. So my playing skills certainly aren't poor.

Next time your around I propose a friendly challenge

(to be honest, I nudge...but very very little, as others can attest to)

p.s. I cheat at Monopoly(the board game), and Golf

Quoted from Subpacket

B1 - You are totally wrong.


It's "you're" not "your".


(this is nothing more then a +1 post)

Damn Grammar! or is Grammer?
mess!

Good call Thanks Subby, doesn't change the fact he's a douche

Quoted from Hippochrome

3rd place overall in the OPL season...and I missed a league night. So my playing skills certainly aren't poor.

Isn't this last statement in contradiction of everything else you've been saying in this thread?  You just said that your own skill isn't poor, so would that be an admission that pinball does require skill?

As for nudging being cheating, that's fine, if that's your opinion, but that doesn't make it correct.  Your opinion could be that the sky isn't blue or that their isn't a sun in the sky but that doesn't make it true.  

As for the personal attacks, sorry about that, I get carried away sometimes especially when it comes to talking about pinball competition and skill levels.  

I have hardwood floors and rubber footies on my pins...try moving THOSE things a few inches...nope! Those things are sucktionned to the floor...
You know those shots going SDTM and you'd like to give that machine a good sideways nudge to avoid it? At my place, you get you stare helplessly at the ball as it drains.
But nudging, in general, is what pinball is all about really. And yes, thats how pinball started, no flippers, to get that ball where you need to score, or avoid gobble holes, its nudge city. You can still give my games a good nudge, they're just not gonna slide across the floor.

Stan

Quoted from Pinballed

I have hardwood floors and rubber footies on my pins...try moving THOSE things a few inches...nope! Those things are sucktionned to the floor...

Yep those things do curb moving of the machine quite a bit.  PAPA uses them on every tournament machine since they are all on carpet.

I only did it to save the floors, I dont mind moving a pin a good bit but this changed that ability.

Quoted from RayB

So who the hell are you supposed to cheer if your "heritage" is an amalgam of 3 or more european countries? All of them? What if two of those countries are playing against each other?  

Cheer for a tie ... probably nil nil ....

Quoted from wbradley

John Daly ia a very atypical pro athlete. Not to mention a very spotty record. He probably has some of the best natural talent ever ,but his poor work ethic and substance abuse has made it impossible for him to sustain a steady professional standing in the PGA.

SOunds like Babe Ruth to a T

Quoted from SquidVicious

SOunds like Babe Ruth to a T

...yet both are/were in the big leagues. There have been many notables in baseball... some that come to mind are John Kruk, Cecil Fielder, Hideki Irabu and David Wells to name a few.

Golfers? ... just look at a single tournament. You will see plenty.

Quoted from Sparky

...yet both are/were in the big leagues. There have been many notables in baseball... some that come to mind are John Kruk, Cecil Fielder, Hideki Irabu and David Wells to name a few.

Golfers? ... just look at a single tournament. You will see plenty.

Hey don't forget Cecil's kid Prince another 'big boned' fella.

Actually back in high school I worked at Thirfty's NHL players would come in a spend gift certificates that they would win. I was surprised how many (in the late 70's - early 80's) looked what would be called soft today (nothing like Daly of course but not overly athletic looking either).

Quoted from Vengeance

Isn't this last statement in contradiction of everything else you've been saying in this thread?  You just said that your own skill isn't poor, so would that be an admission that pinball does require skill?

As for nudging being cheating, that's fine, if that's your opinion, but that doesn't make it correct.  Your opinion could be that the sky isn't blue or that their isn't a sun in the sky but that doesn't make it true.  

As for the personal attacks, sorry about that, I get carried away sometimes especially when it comes to talking about pinball competition and skill levels.  

No problem....I just saw that the debate was getting a little too heated...no love lost

Yeah, I think nudging is cheap/cheating...
Is it a part of the game? For sure it is! I just don't think it should be.
If it were up to me (i.e. If I designed games or invented pinball) the tilt settings would be permanently jacked super high

As for the contradiction...
Some guy calls me out as a poor pinball player, I'm going to defend myself. Yeah, I think I'm okay at pinball, and the stats show that...I'm not the best, that's for sure! But I certainly don't suck. A few years of playing pinball daily, nudging or not, will make you an okay pinball player...that's kinda my whole argument...

I say experience/practice makes a good pinball player, not skill/talent (i.e. pinball is such a basic game that anyone can be great at it, as compared to the skill/talent it takes to being great at Hockey or Soccer)....somehow nudging got worked into the whole debate?

Quoted from Hippochrome

I say experience/practice makes a good pinball player, not skill/talent (i.e. pinball is such a basic game that anyone can be great at it, as compared to the skill/talent it takes to being great at Hockey or Soccer)....somehow nudging got worked into the whole debate?

Hell the thread started out as a rant about the World Cup

Well explain to me the difference, people don't wake up one day and all of the sudden they are good enough to play in the NHL or Play in the World Cup.  They have to train, day in and day out and practice and learn and get good at it.  There is no difference between that and what you have to do to get good at pinball (except for the very obvious physical component and the shape the person has to be in.)  Also just like in professional sports there are people who are much better and have a natural talent for the game.  Perfect example in Pinball is Bowen Kerins who walked into his first World Championship in 1994 and won the entire thing having never competed at a professional level before.  

Also I don't buy the argument that anyone can be great at it.  Perfect example is we have a member in TOPL who has been playing pinball for the last 10 years, owns over 60 machines and is one of the worst players I have ever seen.   Gretzky didn't come out of the womb holding a hockey stick, I'll agree there was a level on natural talent there but had it not been taught how to play hockey and practiced he would never have been as good as he was.  

Quoted from Hippochrome

No problem....I just saw that the debate was getting a little too heated...no love lost

...

I say experience/practice makes a good pinball player, not skill/talent (i.e. pinball is such a basic game that anyone can be great at it, as compared to the skill/talent it takes to being great at Hockey or Soccer)....somehow nudging got worked into the whole debate?

Nudge, nudge, wink, wink, say ... no ... more!

A nod's as good as a wink to a blind bat!

Quoted from Vengeance

Well explain to me the difference...

Pinball is as simple as learning the rule sheet of the particular game, and knowing a few tricks (i.e. Pinball 101 DVD).

Sports are take an infinitely higher level of hand/eye coordination, plus (to quote WCS94: Skill, Speed, Stamina, Spirit, Strength).

Try this: Play soccer or hockey drunk and see how bad you suck at it...
Then try playing pinball drunk. You may actually do better...I know I do...but that's true for me in golf as well

On a nudge side-note...try not nudging in a game right now. Really try to cradle or catch the ball, and aim your shots. I just tried it and got 1,300,000,000 on WCS, first try. Now Im gonna try with nudging.

Quoted from Hippochrome

Pinball is as simple as learning the rule sheet of the particular game, and knowing a few tricks (i.e. Pinball 101 DVD).

Sports are take an infinitely higher level of hand/eye coordination, plus (to quote WCS94: Skill, Speed, Stamina, Spirit, Strength).

Try this: Play soccer or hockey drunk and see how bad you suck at it...
play pinball drunk, and you may actually do better...I know I do...but that's true for me in golf as well

But it's not that simple.  I think the biggest part of the problem is that you've never ever played at a competitive level for pinball.  Yes you have OPL but I wouldn't really call that competition, more a group of friends who hang out and play pinball together and decide to keep score.  The level of competition and skill involved to play at the higher level is something you've never experienced.  It's like you sitting in your living room watching hockey and trying to tell you buddies you could make it in the NHL.  It's a very, very different world and ask anyone who has tried and I'm sure they will tell you about the rude awaking they got when they tried (Spacecadet, Frosken, Taragilia(sp?))

I'm also not trying to say that sports and pinball are on the same level, there is obviously allot more training involved and physical prowess then pinball, I'm not even going to try and argue that fact.  I'm just trying to show the parallels in that just as in order to get good at sports you have to train and practice and learn things so to do you have to do that in pinball.

As for drinking beer, I used to think it helped me play better as it would calm my nerves but have found as of late that it just makes me play worse.  

Quoted from Vengeance

But it's not that simple.  I think the biggest part of the problem is that you've never ever played at a competitive level for pinball.  

Good point.

I'd have to be pretty drunk to compete at that level My nerves would be riding sky high...

However, as you were saying, some guy who never competed in a pinball tourney before, just walked in a won the whole thing. So you never know?!? It could happen with me....watch that, eh? Ha, then everyone would stop nudging! "Hey, wow! Did you see that Hippochrome guy play...he didnt even nudge and won the entire tournament"..."Really? Wow! Is he selling (how to) DVD's?"

In pro sports that would never happen. Although the results are hard to test, because in Pro sports, if someone had that kind of "skill/talent" some agent would have found them and made sure they were competing at that level already.