Ok so here is the initial impression.

First off it is the first pin I was able to readily disassemble enough to get downstairs with only the assistance of my son.

My expectations for this game were incredibly low. Even though I had played it extensively years ago I thought I might have viewed it through rose colored glasses then and overrated the game. When it was in other peoples collections I didn't give it too much attention because usually I was trying several pins at the same time. At any rate I really am taking a fresh look at the game at this time.

Ok overall appearance. Game looks great, the artwork is top notch. I find the color choices of plastics within the pf to be outstanding and the plastics themselves are very appealing. The lit apron is a fantastic effect synchronized with the gameplay. Don't know why no one has picked up on this idea since.

Play. Well it plays more like a pin than a vid. I find I am actually making specific shots and not just hammering the centre (let me qualify this in saying no more than a genie, castle, trunk or saucer.)

Sound, great. I need to explore the hardware more but it appears on initial listen to be even better than WPC95 sounds.

My initial thoughts. I think we are pretty spoiled by the current video games out there. I would say this game has more modes than most DMD pins but is not really recognized for that as I believe that most of us tend to compare it more with the diversity of current video games than to the diversity of current pinballs.

Game is polished for sure for an initial attempt at this new system. Again may not be a game that could hold up on it's own but none can really. Don't know where it will end up yet but my initial impression for part of the collection is quite positive which is a pleasant surprise.

Just PM me when you will want to sell this pin....    Look very fun!!!

You should change your signature......

...Don't know where it will end up yet ...
[/quote]

My basement if my goddamn luck finally turns. 30 or so clearcoat jobs and I can get one!!!

What code revision are you running?

Quoted from Monkeybug

What code revision are you running?

It's late so I need to run and do some stuff. I will check tomorrow. While on that note whats with the update on these? Internet? Broadband? Dialup?

RFM!!! It's easy to update. I used a old laptop to update mine.

http://www.pinball.com/tech/pin2000/

Quoted from TANMAN

RFM!!! It's easy to update. I used a old laptop to update mine.

http://www.pinball.com/tech/pin2000/

Good.

I got the information on it.

Game #50070
Game Software Version 1.1
Sound Version 1.2
Build Date Friday  May 21 15:01:10 1999
XINA V1.11 Friday May 21 12:01:11 1999

Doesn't mean all that much to me until I investigate.

Basically you're on a very early ROM set.  You'll definitely want to update it to 1.5 as it'll fix a bunch of issues.

D

Yea, 1.1 was my original version.  On 1.5 now and can see a difference.

Anyone know if it has to be a Windows 95 or 98 PC? All I have is Vista anymore on my laptops and I know there has been compatibility issues in some cases, maybe not this one, with flashing using XP as DOS is emulated. I am guessing Vista may also be problematic.

1.6 is only for tournament use.  No game updates afaik.

Congratulation,very nice game that you have necro.If you have to sale one day call joce but after call me

Yeah, congratulations on the new addition to the line-up!

Looks like you're running out of space down there... call me when I can pick up the GNR! That'll clear up one spot for you.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Ok, I see 1.5 alright....

Anyone know if it has to be a Windows 95 or 98 PC? All I have is Vista anymore on my laptops and I know there has been compatibility issues in some cases, maybe not this one, with flashing using XP as DOS is emulated. I am guessing Vista may also be problematic.

XP works successfully, but who knows about Vista.  (you'll also need a system with a real com port, as the USB->Serial adapters don't seem to work)

D

Looks nice.  Curious as to where you found it - and how far you had to drive?  

Quoted from Tuborg

Looks nice.  Curious as to where you found it - and how far you had to drive?  

This RFM was posted FS here on Maaca and TOPL, located just north of the GTA in Barrie.

D

Quoted from Menace

XP works successfully, but who knows about Vista.  (you'll also need a system with a real com port, as the USB->Serial adapters don't seem to work)

D

Hmmm. Looks like I will be using one of my not so portable desktop systems to do this.

Yeah history on this game from what I know is Dave Astill -> Mulligan -> a.stebel -> me. I don't know much more than that. It's pretty damn clean. I will be stripping it anyway to replace a couple of jet bumper skirts but other than a couple of nicks in the black here and there it damn near looks HUO. I am sure it's not but it must of been lifted off route early in it's career. The coin slot has very little wear.

Quoted from Bally Boy

Looks like you're running out of space down there... call me when I can pick up the GNR! That'll clear up one spot for you.

You never know, down the road I might be enticed with something on my wanted list.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

The coin slot has very little wear.

It's an RFM ...that's normal.

Quoted from Mrhide

It's an RFM ...that's normal.

Yep. Anthony and I had the same discussion. It's like saying I have a CV that looks hardly played. Most I have seen look that way anyway. What can I say? Route dog does not always mean collectors dog.

If that meant anything HSII would be uber A list because they most of the time look like they have been tortured.

"You never know, down the road I might be enticed with something on my wanted list."  -necro_nemesis

That will NOT help your space issue.......

There was one on craiglist in Detroit but I dont have money right now.  Damm! Hate when that happens.

Well last night was a first. I came home from work and rather than my son having the XBox360 going with COD4 or Halo3 he was pounding away at RFM.

I found right away that the game was set to be way to generous with extra balls. So I removed the ones awarded by score alone which made it play more like a conventional game. I don't know why it would have defaulted to be so generous, but I am assuming it may have had something to do with convincing video game players that they could be proficient at playing pinball.

At any rate, I must say there is far more game here than I anticipated. Lots of modes, lots of multiball, lots of nostalgia and some really good humour. I can't find much to be negative about. I guess it would have to boil down to the issue again that it may not look like a conventional pinball if your an absolute purist, but then again the transition from EM to SS had the same growing pains, and in some cases they even put in mechanical devices just to make it sound EM in the early days.

Too bad it didn't get more titles made for it. I could just imagine how great a remake of FH or Pinbot etc. etc. etc. would have been in Pin2000.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

At any rate, I must say there is far more game here than I anticipated. Lots of modes, lots of multiball, lots of nostalgia and some really good humour. I can't find much to be negative about.

You're preaching to the choir my friend...  

I can't understand why RFM is so undervalued...

It's an awesome pin all-around, and a masterpiece of technical engineering.

IMHO, a nice RFM at $2500 is a bargain.
I still contend that these will go up in value ....

...but that's just me !  

Cheers,
Steph

Quoted from Steph

IMHO, a nice RFM at $2500 is a bargain.
I still contend that these will go up in value ....

Agreed. To be honest I was waiting for the bottom to drop out on it. At $3500 from collectors and seeing the route operators dumping for $1000 to $1500 below that for routed games. The market was really looking bad for the game. I still say if you wait long enough you may find a fixer upper for as low as $1600 USD. I have personally witnessed it, but gas, border and repairs just didn't seem to make it worthwhile going bargain basement on this title, especially when the monitor alone is a few hundred to replace.

If anyone one is looking for a minty one, there is one in Cleveland that's HUO for $2800. It just came back up the other day since the guys deal dropped through. I was thinking about it seriously, but this one is nice enough that I wouldn't go the extra to land it. It was on Mr Pinball.

I like RFM don't get me wrong, but I found it repetitive after a while.  You allways have to play threw all 9 modes no matter what way you look at it.  Attack Mars is fun, I never did beat that 300,000 Attack mars champ score when I had one, but after a while I just never played it anymore and I got out before the price drop and bought a TZ instead so the choice was easy for me.  

I could see myself owning one again, but mabe later down the line, I want to pick one up before the Nucore system takes off as I really think it may open up a whole world of possibilities.  

Quoted from Vengeance

I like RFM don't get me wrong, but I found it repetitive after a while.  You allways have to play threw all 9 modes no matter what way you look at it.  Attack Mars is fun, I never did beat that 300,000 Attack mars champ score when I had one, but after a while I just never played it anymore and I got out before the price drop and bought a TZ instead so the choice was easy for me.  

I could see myself owning one again, but mabe later down the line, I want to pick one up before the Nucore system takes off as I really think it may open up a whole world of possibilities.  

Understood, and I think you made a key statement here. At one time RFM would fetch you what you needed to obtain a TZ. When the forces were in place to have TZ moving up in price and RFM moving down, there would be little motivation to hold onto it at that time knowning you could get back in at a lower price. IMHO, you made the right choice at the time, and to be honest I think we are probably seeing the bottom from what I have witnessed on RFM, so it may be time to revisit the title.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

If anyone one is looking for a minty one, there is one in Cleveland that's HUO for $2800. It just came back up the other day since the guys deal dropped through. I was thinking about it seriously, but this one is nice enough that I wouldn't go the extra to land it. It was on Mr Pinball.

Where's Claude (ALJO) when you need him?   Have no cash - but that's a nice price for a unique game... ...and getting one in Ottawa doesn't seem likely.

It was this ad if anyone is interested:

Revenge From Mars, 2000 Bally: $2800
A beautiful HUO game. I bought this new in the box and it has been in my gameroom since 1999. Cabinet, playfield and backglass are in new condition. This is your chance to buy a ''new'' game for a ''used'' price [about 9000 games]. Plays and scores perfectly. Call for info or pictures.
Gary Temple, Phone: 440-564-9635
Chardon, Ohio, Cleveland, Ohio

Here is the guys email. gctemple /at/ windstream.net

He just responded to me right after I commited to buying the one I have.

Congrats on the new pin Glen!  That gem (game) has been on my wish list for some time as well.  I think they did some pretty awesome things with the Pinball 2000 and its a shame we didn't get a few more titles.  I love the diversity this game will add to the gameroom, especially if it's comprised of mostly pins, as in my case.  Enjoy!

                                                  flashman

I've watched that Tilt DVD so many times that I'm raging with jealousy.  Good score!

Quoted from flashman

Congrats on the new pin Glen!  That gem (game) has been on my wish list for some time as well.  I think they did some pretty awesome things with the Pinball 2000 and its a shame we didn't get a few more titles.  I love the diversity this game will add to the gameroom, especially if it's comprised of mostly pins, as in my case.  Enjoy!

                                                  flashman

Well like Adam was saying, maybe Nucore will be the answer to that.

Hmmm.

CPR can make pf's.
get someone to work on an SDK.... maybe Cyborg
Get a couple of guys on here working on code and hardware (ToMMy) and artwork (Sparky) and he he.... we could have a Canadian pinball company!

I just want to be a beta tester.

Ok I am starting to get this stuff together to make it record online scores.

What the heck is Charles doing up there??? mess, isn't he happy enough having his score on some of my machines?? The nerve of this guy!

http://www.pinballnews.com/news/rfm.html
http://www.mypinballs.com/tournament/

First off I am seeing they are specifying a specific network card an SMC8416T. Is this a compatibility issue with the OS or is it a limitation of the Cyrix MediaGX motherboard or bios used? Seems to be a little restrictive no?

Also the need for putting in a Linksys GL router with DDWRT running as a wireless client with a command in the command shell. Again apparently trying to overcome shortfalls in the RFM code.

Anyone have insight into these requirements? Are they as limited to this configuration as Jim suggests?

If so where do I get all this crap.... cheap!

I have been playing around with this, and talking to Jim Askey on and off about it.

While there are alternatives, they have not been tested or confirmed to work.  In theory, I think you could run a dedicated network wire to your game, and bypass that whole extra wireless bridge.  As for the specific router, I haven't confirmed, but I believe you don't need the 'L'(inux) version to get it going. DD-WRT is the solution.  

As for the barcode reader, I have talked to others and as long as you have any reader that follows the specs, it should work.

As usual, I have all the parts, but little time to get this going.  When I get something concrete, I will post.

Unfortunately when it comes to the NIC P2K can use, that specific SMC card (and it's derivatives) is the ONLY one that will work in P2K.  My guess is because WMS pulled the plug so quickly on P2K they didn't have time to program any other NIC's.

And as MB stated, the key portion for the tourney to work is the DD-WRT firmware.  You should be able to use any router that you can flash with the DD-WRT, but the Linksys is the only one verified so far to work.  (and the wireless bridge would only need to be used if a LAN cable was not accessible to the machine)  One other thing to consider is Jim has only verified the full DD-WRT firmware to work, but supposedly the micro-build should work as well, but again, not verified yet.  So to save yourself potential headaches, if you're not going to buy a 54GL pickup a router that you can flash with the full version.

As for the barcode reader, I just happen to have a spare of the exact one Jim has verified to work on his site.  PM me if you're interested in it. (It won't be 'cheap', but it will be 'cheaper' than finding / buying one on-line)

D

I have two WRT54G's here in hand that are both flashed with DD-WRT Micro so I can check out that aspect and report.

As for the NIC you were saying something Doug about "derivatives" any idea what those would be? I have a pile of computer crap here but am curious whether I am looking for a specific chipset on the the card?

Can you also confirm Jim is using ver 1.5 at this time?

Looking for one of the following adapter cards.

SMC8416T
SMC8416BT
SMC8416BTA

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Can you also confirm Jim is using ver 1.5 at this time?

I am almost certain you can run it on any versions of the ROMs.  Anything hat is v1.5 (or above) is suggested and 1.8 is needed to the picture high score features.

Game is giving me issues with updating. I have the serial 9 pin null modem cable connected to a Windows XP desktop. I run the software and it won't connect. I checked over all the settings possible including moving the com port around on my PC bios. No joy. I pulled the motherboard and cards out of RFM and check all connections. One thing I don't get is the option screen in the utilities menu to select the RFM com port. I am thinking maybe 1.1 was so early they didn't even work out this issue.

Anyway I may be stuck plucking the damn Prism card and plunking it into an old computer to use the PUB updater if that is the case. Right now I am hoping it is a BS issue with XP and comm ports.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Game is giving me issues with updating. I have the serial 9 pin null modem cable connected to a Windows XP desktop.

I could be wrong, but XP handles the COM ports differently than older Windows version.

I know I have other COMs program  (namely old eprom software) which won't run under XP.

I use an old Laptop with Win98 and have no problems.


Steph

Quoted from Steph

I could be wrong, but XP handles the COM ports differently than older Windows version.

I know I have other COMs program  (namely old eprom software) which won't run under XP.

I use an old Laptop with Win98 and have no problems.


Steph

Great. Now I got to create an Fn dual boot.

This is like threading a needle with a sledgehammer. Old desktop since old laptops with a serial port have gone the way of the Dodo. Luckily I have some old crap computer my wife hasn't insisted I turf to get this far. I saw an ISA port today..... It was 10 years old and seemed like I was looking at ancient history.

No way to emulate the old OS port handing I guess eh? Funny thing is Marvin mentions specifically using XP for update.

I used xp to flash a few times when i had RFM/SWEP1. Com ports haven't anywhere, I just built a new computer and the com port is still there, its just off a header pin on the motherboard now.

There is copies of windows 98 floating around that are bootable from a CD and mount a ram drive, that may be another solution.

Quoted from mark

I used xp to flash a few times when i had RFM/SWEP1. Com ports haven't anywhere, I just built a new computer and the com port is still there, its just off a header pin on the motherboard now.

There is copies of windows 98 floating around that are bootable from a CD and mount a ram drive, that may be another solution.

It's flashing right now with XP. It turns out to be a cable issue although I know that both cables I have are null modem as I use the one I have always used. I picked up a new one and it is flashing. I don't really know why, but it's working. I do know the pin crossover for the other null is identical so what exactly it is has got me. If anything I would say my first cable looks to be better quality and shielded better.  

As for WRT54G's I thought I had two. It turned out one was a WRK54G. Useless for this application. Picked up the very last WRT54G on the shelf at Future Shop. Will kill it and install DD-WRT Micro and see if I have any luck configuring. Won't know the end result until I locate the SMC card.

Update. It took the flash but it is telling me I have sound file 1.2. I did a flash of both and then I flashed sound alone. Still 1.2. The file is listed as 1.5 in it's name but seems to be 1.2. Is that right?

Quoted from necro_nemesis

SMC8416T
SMC8416BT
SMC8416BTA

Those would be all the derivatives of the 8416 chipset I mentioned earlier.  I had to dig pretty hard to locate 2 of these NIC's for a decent price.  Not sure why, but anyone that seems to have them in stock charges good $$ for them.

D

Well there may be a requirement to increase memory as well. At this time without the benefit of a NIC the game freezes at the end when the final score would be sent. I turned on tourney mode and plugged in some fake net information. What was a little disturbing was it lock up and then on reboot it would cycle power every couple of seconds. A reset to factory settings cleared this issue but I guess it is holding information and if it can't dump it, it really screws it up.

The issue gets some discussion here.

http://groups.google.ca/group/.....ent#e4234436f1b695e3

Quoted from Steph

I've only "heard" of this mythical version, but I've never seen it anywhere...

1.5 was the last official version.

There was an unofficial 1.6 and 1.8 (no 1.7?) that only adjusted/fixed/modified some of the networking items.  It has no changes to the game play at all.  These versions aren't released publicly just like the DM swear roms and the STTNG funny roms (originally).  I don't know the reason but it probably has something to do with being unofficial and with Wayne having a stack of C&D letters looking for some new destinations.

And yes, v1.8 will need more ram than the standard (4mb?) that came with it, if you ever want to get the tournament version running to its fullest capacity.

Ok I have done this a few times so I decided to take some pics of the process so
it would be easier for the next guy.

Get the correct router

I use two computers and a memory stick since both are going to be hooked up
to separate routers for me to work back and forth and still have internet. One
will work though if you get all the files and instructions you need in advance.

Check the model number and consult DD-WRT for the correct instructions for
that particular router

Here is the page that discusses this one WRT-54G V8.0

Hook up the router to the computer your going to use to flash with as
indicated

From DD-WRT download the correct flash for your unit

From DD-WRT download the kill file you will need to flash it with first

From Linksys' site download TFTP.exe to flash DD-WRT with

Put in a temporary folder

Put it on your memory stick and transfer to the flash computer

Bring up the router in your favorite browser at 192.168.1.1 and go to
firmware update in the admin area. user/pass is admin/admin

Update the unit with the kill file. Wait at least two minutes after you do
this before doing anything else.

Here is it after flashed. It will appear to be bricked.

Run TFTP and select your DD-WRT file to flash. Address is still 192.168.1.1.
Flash and wait a minute and your done. The new user/pass is root/admin

Hmmm. 4MB of SDRAM I am guessing. I wonder what the board can take? I have a couple of sticks of old PC100 64MB.

I am looking for M.B. specs. Is this the one? Cyrix ST-MGXm?

I have 64mb in mine.  Works fine.  Just takes longer to boot.

I am going to do my very best to try and get the tournament system running by next week. At any rate it looks like the schedule is going to be full for the tourney weekend but if anyone wants to try and post a score then I should be able to do this.

Anyways at the very least if you want to get yourself signed up, I can bring my laminator to Adams and laminate your cards for future use. Just need to print it out.

http://www.mypinballs.com/tournament/admin/users/add.jsp

The reason that only one model of NIC works is probably due to the fact that the software is a custom OS, written from scratch. As you know, no hardware will work in an OS unless there's a driver for it (there are some exceptions like keyboards, and text mode on the monitor). They obviously only bother writing drivers for hardware they actually use.
If WMS had decided to go with linux or another open OS, I'm pretty sure you'd be able to use any hardware you wanted, including motherboard and CPU.
This is why the nucore project is so cool. They're reverse engineering the custom OS (the name escapes me at the moment), so that they can write their own games and drivers, pretty neat stuff. I kinda want to get my own pin2k just to get in on the hacking. (I'm an embedded linux developer)

Quoted from jonny_eh

They're reverse engineering the custom OS (the name escapes me at the moment)

I believe it's called Xina...

D

Quoted from Menace

I believe it's called Xina...

D

Kind of, just trade the "a" for a "u". It wasn't written from scratch, well let me clarify that XINA layer may have been but the OS XINU wasn't. I give the Williams/Midway/Bally guys tremendous credit for being some of the greatest game makers in the world but on this one they may have had a better legal department than programmers. XINA is founded on PC-XINU. An open source OS that had one advantage over Linux in that, unlike Linux, you were not legally required to share the changes that Williams needed to make to the source code to suit their purposes.

http://www.pinrepair.com/pin2000/xina.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XINU

Why is this of any importance? Well I guess in any future development on this platform it is good to know it's foundation is open source. I just wonder if they can license the layer if it's founded on an open source platform, or is it like licensing an application?

The bigger question is WTF does the function "zombie process-id" do?

OK, the question begs to be asked,,,,with all this exploring of the computer basis to this game by you guys....is anybody actuallly just PLAYING the game????????? !

I just had to...

ME

Quoted from medvet

OK, the question begs to be asked,,,,with all this exploring of the computer basis to this game by you guys....is anybody actuallly just PLAYING the game????????? !

I just had to...

ME

Nah. Game is crappy. Don't bother with it.  

Quoted from necro_nemesis

The bigger question is WTF does the function "zombie process-id" do?

Wikipedia is your friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zombie_process

Might have been useful had they produced MB in Pin2K......



I am thinking about how to route the reader without modifying the coin door. Either that or I would be in the market for the metal portion of the door if anyone has a spare to sell.

If they had used linux, they wouldn't have necessarily needed to release their code. They would only need to release their modifications to the kernel, which is licensed under the GPL. If they just wrote drivers or modules, then they could have kept them secret, like nvidia does with their linux drivers.

Back in the stone age when they were designing pin2k, linux didn't have real-time functionality yet, so they probably would need to heavily modify the kernel. If Stern were to design their next gen pin now, linux would be a no brainer, especially since the (non-existent)competition isn't about to steal their source.

Now if WMS chose linux, and released their source code, we wouldn't have such a problem reverse engineering the system now Why didn't they think ahead?!

While googling around for pinball and real-time, I came across this cool paper. Don't bother reading it unless you're a computer geek. Quote from the paper: "Pinball machines are designed to stimulate humans." Anyone who questions whether or not comp sci people are scientists just need to read that line.

Quoted from jonny_eh

While googling around for pinball and real-time, I came across this cool paper. Don't bother reading it unless you're a computer geek.

Well I am sure that if you can read a postscript file, it automatically makes you a computer geek.

For (almost) everyone else, PDF and other info is at:  http://www.sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~pinball/

Quoted from Monkeybug

Well I am sure that if you can read a postscript file, it automatically makes you a computer geek.

For (almost) everyone else, PDF and other info is at:  http://www.sci.brooklyn.cuny.edu/~pinball/

Ya, didn't think of that. I'm using linux as my desktop and the file just opened up as easily as a pdf.

From Marvin, it looks like they wanted to modify the kernel for multithreading while this was already incorporated into XINU.

I'm pretty sure linux has multi-threading, and has had it for a very long time.

Quoted from Monkeybug

As for the specific router, I haven't confirmed, but I believe you don't need the 'L'(inux) version to get it going. DD-WRT is the solution.  

I have been emailing Jim back and forth and regarding the router. Here is what his comment was which is good news.

"In theory you can run any open sourced router with any version software as long as you add the command for the ttl mod as specified on my site and configure as a client to your main router."

"The ttl mod is the important part as this is a work around for a limitation of the original williams game code."

Jim has been great at assisting with the setup.

I had the networking almost set up using a (piece of sh*t) Linksys wrt54g and micro dd-wrt.  Jim had sent me his bin file, which I loaded onto the router.  This bricked it and made the router useless.  I have since got another one but have not had the time to play around with it.

And yes, Jim is very helpful in answering questions.  He helped me on a few spots as well.

Quoted from Monkeybug

I had the networking almost set up using a (piece of sh*t) Linksys wrt54g and micro dd-wrt.  Jim had sent me his bin file, which I loaded onto the router.  This bricked it and made the router useless.  I have since got another one but have not had the time to play around with it.

And yes, Jim is very helpful in answering questions.  He helped me on a few spots as well.

That config file was for a GL, note the WARNING at the bottom of the window. I will write a new config file once I have it set up for the G Version 8.0 only! It is a matter of configing it and saving the config file here in the Admin area.

Have you tried pinging the router with the command Start -> Run -> typing cmd then typing ping -t 192.168.1.1?

If it can be pinged than you may be able to TFTP the proper file to it right after power up. It may take up to 5 times to take the file I have read. If not it's probably only going to be recoverable through JTAG'ing it.

If you want bring it to the tournament and I will see if I can bring it back to life and load it up for you.



Thanks Claude. It's a really good game and at least I am finding it challenging to get to "Attack Mars". The journey getting there is fun all the way.

I didn't want to permanently modify the game for the reader. Everything I am doing is bolt on but the door would have needed cutting. So I unscrewed the one panel left of the coin slot (which I will keep in the coin tray) and fabricated a second one. Note the slot to allow the cable to run out the back of the reader. The reader will mount to this new metal panel and nothing is modded on the door that isn't reversible.

Update. I installed the reader. By locating it here the door didn't need any permanent mods and it is in a convenient location. The 5 VDC required for the reader power was tapped from the PC power supply using a harness I built from a peripheral power supply splitter cable (red and black on the connector) and a plug I pulled from an old DC transformer. Again this is a plug in mod that just plugged into an existing unused peripheral power connector. The unit draws 300mA so not an issue to use this supply and the reader comes on when it's powered up.

Also with the suggested reader you will need a serial extension cable to make it all the way back and up and around to the computer.



I also upped the RAM to 64MB and the startup ram check is slightly longer as you said MBug but not by much I found.

The pic shows the RAM taken out on top and 2 64MB replacements. Still not sure how much was in there. I can't find how much ram is on each of the 4 Siemens HYB39S16 chips. I am guessing it was 4MB too. According to Jim Askey you require 8MB+. How much "+" I don't know but 64 (increasing by a factor of 8 ) should be enough + in my books.



I got to "Attack Mars" and defeated the ******* levels (what a blast... literally). I must say I love the fact the game makes you finish modes to really get a super score payoff in the end. I don't want to spoil anything but I had to change the way I normally hit the flipper buttons to have any success. 1 Billion + score and no way to upload it.... man I am going to have to go through that all again... happily.

Update on the Tournament system.

I have run into a stumbling block using the WRT54G which I believe is a result of the necessity to use DD-WRT Micro on that particular unit. I have run tracert's back and forth through the connection to ensure routing table and port forwarding settings of port 2069 on both the client and router are correct, then checked it against the routing tables of the router and client. I have also been able to ping the RFM anywhere within the net of the router and subnet of the client. The issue I believe comes down to the TTL (Time To Live) of the packet transfer from RFM. I believe the shortfall in the RFM code Jim mentions is a function of it being only given a 1 TTL which may be satisfactoy for locally connected RFM's but is an insufficient amount of hops to make it through the local net, out the WAN and to Jim's site. In fact I have read that most routers ignore packets sent with TTL =1. The iptables command that modifies the TTL to 64 hops appears to not be supported in the DD-WRT Micro version.

I am trying to see if I can work around the problem, but may have to find a WRT54GL in order to get the iptables command to work. I did find some mention of iptables support in a version of Micro but have yet to verify if in fact it is there. This table indicates it's supported but I have yet to be able to verify the TTL command itself is in there.

http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/What_is_%22DD-WRT%22%3F

If the TTL issue is the main problem with networking RFM, it would seem the best fix would be to fix the TTL problem in the original code of RFM. If this is the case then RFM could just be connected with a static IP to any router.

Wow, I haven't the patience to read your write up, let alone to what ever it is you are doing to fix what ever it is that is wrong.  

Keep up the good work,
Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

Wow, I haven't the patience to read your write up, let alone to what ever it is you are doing to fix what ever it is that is wrong.  

Keep up the good work,
Duane

It's a pain in the neck to make work, (actually it would have been relatively easy in hindsite had I used a WRT54GL vice WRT54G) hence there are only 27 scores posted worldwide. Most of them appear to be TOPL guys playing off of Nick Angels RFM. So one RFM owned by a guy who works in the computer industry attributes to most of the scores. Do the math and figure out how many people have gotten this to work.

I am in it now just for the challenge.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

It's a pain in the neck to make work, (actually it would have been relatively easy in hindsite had I used a WRT54GL vice WRT54G) hence there are only 27 scores posted worldwide. Most of them appear to be TOPL guys playing off of Nick Angels RFM. So one RFM owned by a guy who works in the computer industry attributes to most of the scores. Do the math and figure out how many people have gotten this to work.

I am in it now just for the challenge.

Sounds like a great reason to me. Reading this makes me want to get an RFM and give it a try

Quoted from jonny_eh

Sounds like a great reason to me. Reading this makes me want to get an RFM and give it a try

Yep. I am starting to look at Sveasoft and Tomato to see if they have the iptables TTL support. I have found a few threads with people stating that DD-WRT Micro appears to not support the TTL command, but none have been confirmed on their thread.

Right now I am looking at three options. Patch the kernal (which I doubt there is sufficient room which is why it was omitted), run another 3rd party code or find a WRT54GL. The last is looking most attractive.

You wouldn't be intersted in learning XINU and fixing the original problem eh?

XINU? Nah, I don't mess with Scientologists.

Quoted from jonny_eh

XINU? Nah, I don't mess with Scientologists.

In the end I think I found out what happened with regards to these routers.

WRT54G up to V4 had 4Mb of flash memory allowing you to flash the standard DD-WRT. V5 and up have only 2Mb which is the reason you have to flash Micro. So what did they throw away to fit into the 2Mb flash? iptables-extra which includes the TTL support.

I am looking for a WRT54G V4 or earlier or a WRT54GL if anyone has one to sell (very common except I don't have one. ). This is what they look like. Sticker on the bottom has the model and version.

Explanation of TTL: link

What TTL setting does RFM require? Sorry if you already talked about it.

Quoted from ALJO

When you will be fnished, I'd like an understandable explanation to what you are doing here, I'm very confused.
Thanks. Claude.

I am trying to get scores to record here.... for what it's worth.

http://www.mypinballs.com/tournament/core/scores.jsp

Quoted from jonny_eh

Explanation of TTL: link

What TTL setting does RFM require? Sorry if you already talked about it.

It is progammed to send packets with TTL=1. So they don't even make the first hop since the router ignores them (logically, since the first hop is the router so it knows it's wasting it's time). I dunno how many TTL hops are required but Jim has specified 64 which I am certain is more than sufficient given the multiple routes packets can go on the internet.

As far as I can tell it was fine with TTL of 1 for local use and that was all that was intended at the time.

Here is the command which specifies TTL of 64. To my knowledge it does nothing in my router since it doesn't appear to have the iptables-extra required in the flash which includes the TTL support.

iptables -t mangle -I PREROUTING -i br0 -s XXX.XXX.XXX.XXX -j TTL --ttl-set 64

Oh, I see. Pretty weird for them to set TTL to 1, even if it was only intended for local play. They should have just used the default 64/128 that everything else uses.

BTW, I have a WRT54GL, with dd-wrt. I highly recommend it. Would the nucore system be capable of uploading tournament scores? Why hasn't Stern clued into this yet?

Quoted from jonny_eh

Oh, I see. Pretty weird for them to set TTL to 1, even if it was only intended for local play. They should have just used the default 64/128 that everything else uses.

BTW, I have a WRT54GL, with dd-wrt. I highly recommend it. Would the nucore system be capable of uploading tournament scores? Why hasn't Stern clued into this yet?

Hello Everyone,

It is indeed a strange decision to make. When I was writing my system I assumed it was set to 64 but during the packet reading tests it was discovered to be set to 1. I may release a patch for the game code in the future, but at the moment my setup details found at http://www.mypinballs.com/tournament/core/techsetup.jsp are the easiest way to get your rfm connected. Setup should not take long if you use the default confg file on there.

I have been in discussions with the nucore guys regarding adding some custom stuff for their system including this ttl fix. I think this will be something for after the initial release.

Sterns seem to have gone in the opposite direction regarding tournaments. I think thats a bit odd. Maybe I should add an icon on my site for people to use saying 'Network Required'

If anyone would like to join my tournament then you will be most welcome, register yourself here http://www.mypinballs.com/tournament/admin/users/add.jsp

Jim

mypinballs.com Tournament System

Quoted from necro_nemesis

I am trying to get scores to record here.... for what it's worth.

You get your top score on the score list and you get a unlimited backup of all the rfm scores you've ever had. The backup function is something I will be expanding on with future software releases. I don't know of any other system which preserves your score history.

Quoted from ALJO

Can we do this kind of thing on any recent pinball machines?

Nope...

Only on Pin2000 because the CPU is actually a real computer.

Rumor has it you could "technically" surf the web with the right networking hardware
(...although I'm pretty sure that has never been proven ...)

Steph

Quoted from applejuice

Hello Everyone,

It is indeed a strange decision to make. When I was writing my system I assumed it was set to 64 but during the packet reading tests it was discovered to be set to 1. I may release a patch for the game code in the future, but at the moment my setup details found at http://www.mypinballs.com/tournament/core/techsetup.jsp are the easiest way to get your rfm connected. Setup should not take long if you use the default confg file on there.

I have been in discussions with the nucore guys regarding adding some custom stuff for their system including this ttl fix. I think this will be something for after the initial release.

Sterns seem to have gone in the opposite direction regarding tournaments. I think thats a bit odd. Maybe I should add an icon on my site for people to use saying 'Network Required'

If anyone would like to join my tournament then you will be most welcome, register yourself here http://www.mypinballs.com/tournament/admin/users/add.jsp

Jim

mypinballs.com Tournament System

So it was a mistake, ok, that makes sense. It's a shame you never got a chance to correct it, and more games weren't made to take advantage of this forward thinking idea.

Are you saying that you're actually able to release new game code? That'd be pretty cool, especially after all this time. I doubt that any of the license holders would object, it just adds value to the license.

Quoted from jonny_eh

I doubt that any of the license holders would object, it just adds value to the license.

Actually they would.  WMS, IPB and TPF are still active in licensing.

I was just a PinExpo, and after seeing the Nucore presentation, and personally talking to Gene (IPB), Chuck (Nucore), Ted Estes and Cameron Silver...(Yes...that's my name dropping...). WMS and everyone else involved are still very active with the rights to their code.  The will aggresively pursue unlicensed versions.  A recent case in point was the modified NGG's for charity.  The modifed Rom code got them into trouble.

Quoted from Monkeybug

Actually they would.  WMS, IPB and TPF are still active in licensing.

I was just a PinExpo, and after seeing the Nucore presentation, and personally talking to Gene (IPB), Chuck (Nucore), Ted Estes and Cameron Silver...(Yes...that's my name dropping...). WMS and everyone else involved are still very active with the rights to their code.  The will aggresively pursue unlicensed versions.  A recent case in point was the modified NGG's for charity.  The modifed Rom code got them into trouble.

And that is why I have not modified anything that belongs to Williams, or any one else. My system is 100% original, and works with stock williams code. This is a very important point. I have no source code from the original games and am not part of the original design team.

Please remember that my instructions are to use a WRT54GL router as part of your network and upload a config file from my site. A lot of the discussion here is trying to get a non supported router to work with my system.

Jim

Quoted from jonny_eh

So it was a mistake, ok, that makes sense. It's a shame you never got a chance to correct it, and more games weren't made to take advantage of this forward thinking idea.

Are you saying that you're actually able to release new game code? That'd be pretty cool, especially after all this time. I doubt that any of the license holders would object, it just adds value to the license.

The williams guys released what was an amazing system for the time, so I wouldn't say it was a mistake. The system did what they wanted it to do. I am using additional hardware to allow stock game code to be used in a new way, which i think fits together quite nicely.

I am not going to be releasing any game code updates nor would i want to. I was just suggesting that a patch for a singular issue is possible in theory. Obviously the licence holder holds all the cards and i'm happy with how my system works anyway. Most people are going to need some sort of wireless router in their 'games room' regardless.

All my updates will be to my tournament system code, which i own outright.

Jim

mypinballs.com Tournament System

Quoted from applejuice

Please remember that my instructions are to use a WRT54GL router as part of your network and upload a config file from my site. A lot of the discussion here is trying to get a non supported router to work with my system.

Jim

Agreed.

Welcome Jim.

I was working under the premis that any third party flashed router that could run in client mode and handle the TTL modification command (which you make quite clear is critical) would work. Unfortunately the lack of TTL support and the omission of iptables extras in Micro flash versions of DD-WRT is poorly documented. It is in fact a red herring as I stated that DD-WRT indicates iptables support. I suggest it should state "limited iptables support".  Jim states use of the GL. It's still available here in Canada (cheap) if anyone is interested in getting a NIB one. When I started this project, I picked up a G since Futureshop had them locally. Jim has always stated use the GL since he has tested the use of that model.

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11030NW9977&vpn=WRT54GL&manufacture=CISCO

Had this not been the case. The system would have been running quickly. There are some idiosyncrasies involved in port forwarding that may need some better clarification, but had the TTL command worked it I would have ruled those out quickly. Furthermore the example given is on a 10.0 network which is not the default configuration for the Linksys routers I have worked with (maybe the GL is different, yet to be seen). I would suggest giving examples on a 192.168.1.0 and 192.168.2.0 net and sub net would be easier to translate. The config file is good for only one specific model/version of router and network configuration. If your not careful that you have exactly the same router it can lead to problems as witness here with bricking it. My preference is to enter the information, specific to my current network and router.

I have a WRT54GL lined up and a WRT54G V4 coming. I will attempt to configure the G just for the purpose of insuring it was in fact the Micro version of DD-WRT that was not compatible with TTL support.

As to the licensing issues I am disappointed to see those that have no apparent use for the code creating obstacles. I do not see how these individuals can profit from the code any further since the business model is based on selling machines that run the code and not the code itself. They aren't building or selling any NGG's, RFM's or titles anymore and appeared to have zero interest to do so with any platforms after Oct 25 1999.

I wonder what sort of issues these chaps are running into?

http://www.oddchange.com/freewpc/

Quoted from necro_nemesis

http://www.directcanada.com/products/?sku=11030NW9977&vpn=WRT54GL&manufacture=CISCO

Wow! That is a great price. I wish I could get them that cheap here in the UK.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

http://www.oddchange.com/freewpc/

That's one cool project.  So this guys basically making a WPC OS for us to start coding in?   I guess they've even started coding the TZ code itself - purely based on knowing the rules and the switches, solenoids, and lamp matrix behavior... ...this could lead to some neat home "roms"...

Quoted from Tuborg

That's one cool project.  So this guys basically making a WPC OS for us to start coding in?   I guess they've even started coding the TZ code itself - purely based on knowing the rules and the switches, solenoids, and lamp matrix behavior... ...this could lead to some neat home "roms"...

Ya, if only I had that eprom emulator. I'd love to redo T2's code and fix the damn 'payback time' music!