For those who haven't heard , Nortel Networks has filed for Bankruptcy protection this morning.

(..this does not mean that we are actually bankrupt, but rather,
that the company is asking for "protection" from Creditors aksing for their money...
Air Canada did this 10 years ago and turned it around,
...but I'm unfortunately not as hopeful for Nortel...  )

There are several of us here a Nortel  (Me, Sylvain, Tuborg, Newf112,  [others? ] )
who are probably dusting off their CV's this morning ... sighh...

Nortel's fall from grace is now nearly complete.

From  a stock price of $1250 back in Aug 2000, down to 7cents this morning
(...so my $5000 investment is now worth 35 cents ! ).

Our Market Cap (value) is a now a mere $35M.
A bargain considering we have over $1B in assets...

You should see the mood at work this morning.... seeesh !

Steph

Got to piss a man off when you see guys like John Roth run away with the bank.

Sorry to hear that guys but who knows, sounds like on price to book alone someone will pick you guys up and maybe turn things around.

Sad.   My way of looking at it is, is for every Tim Horton's coffee I buy today, its the equivalent in cash as being able to pay cash for a basic $20,000 car...

I liked the CBC radio interview - as I could relate to both parties very well - although the VP's were not impressed - although the interview is within the company guidelines:
http://www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/2009/200901/20090112.html

Hope it goes well for you.

Had a similar experience in October; it's not fun.  

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Got to piss a man off when you see guys like John Roth run away with the bank.

Alot of Execs got ALOT of money from Nortel.

Roth was just the first to make it so blatant.

The next guy (Frank Dunn [2001-2004]) is actually the one who the cooked the books
to give himself a HUGE performance bonus.
He's the one that did most of the damage to Nortel's reputation.

The next guy  (Bill Owens [2004-2005] ) was actually the only honorable one,
but got turfed by the Board of Directors because he wasn't a "Visionary" ... !

Then came Mike Z.  (Zafirowski [2005-present] ) who cost Nortel $12M in penalties
to get him from Motorola.  He then got a $5M/yr salary and boatloads of stock.
He then initiated an Employee Performance Ranking system,
which only rewards to the top 5% of employees, and then proceeds to rank HIMSELF
as a Top Performer to get more bonuses.

He also hired about 20 high-priced Execs from other companies
(...paying them BIG bucks to coerce them to come to Nortel ),
and then had to let them go with HUGE Severances because
most of them made bone-headed decisions which accelerated the downfall ).

Nortel's failure is self-inflicted because of an unbelievably inept Executive corps.

... oh wait, do I sound bitter...   ?    

/rant off

Steph

This is the state of affairs in the publicly traded world of markets. More derivatives than actual assets and more B.S. than you can shake a stick at to see the upper echelon get rewarded like no other point in the history of mankind.

What angers me is the retirement investment vehicles that are sheltered from taxation to push your hard earned money into the market.

How about people investing in their own future and getting the tax shelter huh? How about letting guys write off paying down their mortgage or reducing their debt i.e. reward people for getting out of debt and make them not want to take on more. How about being fiscally responsible so we don't need to borrow huge sums of money to fuel world economies.... breaks into the chorus of Imagine at this point.

I think we could do much better than these crooks. Don't you?

Quoted from necro_nemesis

I think we could do much better than these crooks. Don't you?

YES. I could've run Nortel into the ground for a mere 2 million.....


I wish everyone at Nortel the best, things at alot of other large corporations are not going much better, it's really sad.

Really sorry to hear about that and hope things pick up for all affected.

And be sure that while thousands lose their job, about 8-10 of the top clowns are laughing their asses off while sitting on a beach, counting their (YOUR) money.

That is the sad reality of today. If you hold up a convenience store for a couple of hundred bucks, you are more a nuisance to the store owner than anything... no one is hurt, he claims it on his insurance or merely writes it off with little consequences.

But greedy corporate leeches like these guys, and others like Vincent Lacroix (the Norbourg scandal), and in the US, Tyco, Worldcom, Enron, and all those heads of banks and mortgage companies walk away with BILLIONS, and get even more BILLIONS from the governments, and get away with slaps on the wrists, or in the worst case, same jail time as the poor idiot that robbed a convenience store. These guys ruin thousands, if not millions of lives, and get little to nothing for it.

Corporate greed. It will kill the US economy, and pretty much everyone elses as well. Until accountability is enforced, this is what we live with. We just pray we don't get reamed in the process.


Hang in there guys... if I win the lottery, you will all be my top execs for my pinball company.

Quoted from Steph

Alot of Execs got ALOT of money from Nortel.

Roth was just the first to make it so blatant.

The next guy (Frank Dunn [2001-2004]) is actually the one who the cooked the books
to give himself a HUGE performance bonus.
He's the one that did most of the damage to Nortel's reputation.

The next guy  (Bill Owens [2004-2005] ) was actually the only honorable one,
but got turfed by the Board of Directors because he wasn't a "Visionary" ... !

Then came Mike Z.  (Zafirowski [2005-present] ) who cost Nortel $12M in penalties
to get him from Motorola.  He then got a $5M/yr salary and boatloads of stock.
He then initiated an Employee Performance Ranking system,
which only rewards to the top 5% of employees, and then proceeds to rank HIMSELF
as a Top Performer to get more bonuses.

He also hired about 20 high-priced Execs from other companies
(...paying them BIG bucks to coerce them to come to Nortel ),
and then had to let them go with HUGE Severances because
most of them made bone-headed decisions which accelerated the downfall ).

Nortel's failure is self-inflicted because of an unbelievably inept Executive corps.

... oh wait, do I sound bitter...   ?    

/rant off

Steph

Quoted from necro_nemesis

How about letting guys write off paying down their mortgage or reducing their debt i.e. reward people for getting out of debt and make them not want to take on more.

If you could allow debt payment write-offs, then wouldn't that encourage people to gather debt just to pay it off and get the tax credit?

PM SENT!

Quoted from jonny_eh

If you could allow debt payment write-offs, then wouldn't that encourage people to gather debt just to pay it off and get the tax credit?

I was taking more of a clean slate approach. Take the current personal debt situation and give people an incentive to get it down, but take away the incentive if you borrow more. With interest rates so low there is no incentive for fiscal responsibility. Instead of an incentive to throw money at these CEO's to squander, at least we could pay down our debts.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

I was taking more of a clean slate approach. Take the current personal debt situation and give people an incentive to get it down, but take away the incentive if you borrow more. With interest rates so low there is no incentive for fiscal responsibility. Instead of an incentive to throw money at these CEO's to squander, at least we could pay down our debts.

But those low interest rates you mention are for new loans. There's plenty of incentive to pay down currently held loans with fixed rates. Of course this is different if you are referring to variable rate loans. Or do I have no idea what I'm talking about? (as usual)

Hey Norts (Nortel guys), hope all the best...I have many other "non-pin" friends that are also in the same 'predicament'...

And to say that in the late 90s, a friend of mine (who was laid off, to go back 3 yrs later) tried to coerce me to get out of the federal gov't to come to Nortel...more $$$, stock, etc... I'm happy that I declined at that time (although it WAS a tough decision), but on the other hand, I feel your pain...unfortunately, although it'll be a problem in a few years due to massive retirement, there's not a lot of IT hiring in the gov't...

BTW, not to be an a$$, but Nortel stock his $125, not $1250... We have an ex-Nort guy here and it looks like he'll be working for a while (he's in his 40s) as his "freedom 55" retirement savings plan consisted of Nortel Stock, this his new plan is more aptly called "Freedom 75". Probably you've seen the infamous joke between invest in Beer vs. Nortel stock?

it sux...

Good Luck!

mes deux cennes,
Frosken

Quoted from jonny_eh

But those low interest rates you mention are for new loans.

Unless your locked into something like a fixed rate mortgage or bullshit car loan, there really is no such thing as a long term loan. If you have a good credit rating you borrow where money is cheapest and pay off the loans that are at higher rates. If you aren't getting a good rate by now with the rates being low for some time, your doing something wrong.

I was never loyal to one bank or another. They all played the interest rate game come refinance time which made me not want to give any of them my loyalty. When I paid my mortgage off they all came knocking on my door wanting to load me money. Where the hell were they when I was struggling to finance my first house?

Banks put their trust in assests and not people. What goes around comes around and therefore no loyalty to anyone of them.

Quoted from frosken

BTW, not to be an a$$, but Nortel stock his $125, not $1250...

Frosken

$1250 factors in the 10:1 reverse split from 2006.

Quoted from jonny_eh

If you could allow debt payment write-offs, then wouldn't that encourage people to gather debt just to pay it off and get the tax credit?

I think what necro was trying to say is that the Canadian Government gives you an income tax deduction on the interest for investment loans (to buy stocks, etc) but you are not allowed to deduct the interest you pay on your mortgage or car loan.

In the US - the interest you pay on your mortgage is tax deductible, for whatever reason the Canadian government does not allow that.

Quoted from newf112

$1250 factors in the 10:1 reverse split from 2006.

Correct.

The top stock price "was"  $125,
but the stock has since reversed-split 10:1  (ie. 10 shares became 1 share ),
so today's current price of 7cents is actually the value of 10 "old shares"  (combined!)
which would have been worth $1250 before the reverse split.

Trust me Frosken, we are all WELL aware of how much money we all lost...    

Steph

You guys are absolutely right about the greed that has so infected western society.

Funny thing is when I used to go home (to the US) and if you even mentioned about corporate execs being greedy - you'd be pretty much called a communist.  Remember when Obama told Joe the plumber his plan was to spread the wealth around and McCain and the republicans jumped all over him?  Then the scandals hit and everyone suddenly sees the light.  
Having spent extensive time in both countries its pretty clear that Canadians have a much stronger sense that everyone from the CEO to the secretary should share in the wealth to some degree.

I still find it absolutely incredible that Bernie Madoff stole $50 billion dollars - the largest individual fraud in the history of the world and the judge in his case has given him bail - which means he is confined to his $7 million dollar condo in New York with his own personal chef and maids, etc.  He was caught with $173 million dollars worth of cheques in his desk (money that belonged to investors) and the cheques were all made out to friends and family.  After he got bail - he was caught mailing out over $1 million dollars in jewelry, etc to family members (a blatant violation of his bail conditions) yet the judge still refused to put him behind bars.

I guess the lesson is if you are going to steal - make sure you steal BIG!

Quoted from jayd

I guess the lesson is if you are going to steal - make sure you steal BIG!

Not only that the guy can afford the best legal counsel money can buy with the victims money. How is that for adding insult to injury?

Quoted from Steph

For those who haven't heard , Nortel Networks has filed for Bankruptcy protection this morning.

There are several of us here a Nortel  (Me, Sylvain, Tuborg, Newf112,  [others? ] )
who are probably dusting off their CV's this morning ... sighh...

Hang in there, Steph!  I know things look bleak right now, but maybe things will turn around again.

I went through job re-assignment 9 years ago...and it's a depressing process.  I was given some really good advice at the time, which was "when one door closes, other doors open".  It's true.

Best of luck to all of you at Nortel.

Quoted from Steph

There are several of us here a Nortel  (Me, Sylvain, Tuborg, Newf112,  [others? ] )
who are probably dusting off their CV's this morning ... sighh...

Wow... I had no idea there were so many CV's in the Ottawa region. And are you really neglecting them so much that they collect dust! That's sad. And wrong. Just wrong.  


Wait.... I think I'm confusing my pin abbreviations with something else.  



I hope it all works out for the best, guys!!

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Not only that the guy can afford the best legal counsel money can buy with the victims money. How is that for adding insult to injury?

He can buy the courtroom as well.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Unless your locked into something like a fixed rate mortgage or bullshit car loan, there really is no such thing as a long term loan. If you have a good credit rating you borrow where money is cheapest and pay off the loans that are at higher rates. If you aren't getting a good rate by now with the rates being low for some time, your doing something wrong.

I was never loyal to one bank or another. They all played the interest rate game come refinance time which made me not want to give any of them my loyalty. When I paid my mortgage off they all came knocking on my door wanting to load me money. Where the hell were they when I was struggling to finance my first house?

Banks put their trust in assests and not people. What goes around comes around and therefore no loyalty to anyone of them.

Ya, I made the goof up of buying my house with a 5 year fixed mortgage, ugh. I also just paid off my car loan, so no longer need to worry about that! What a great feeling!

Quoted from jayd

I still find it absolutely incredible that Bernie Madoff stole $50 billion dollars - the largest individual fraud in the history of the world and the judge in his case has given him bail - which means he is confined to his $7 million dollar condo in New York with his own personal chef and maids, etc.  He was caught with $173 million dollars worth of cheques in his desk (money that belonged to investors) and the cheques were all made out to friends and family.  After he got bail - he was caught mailing out over $1 million dollars in jewelry, etc to family members (a blatant violation of his bail conditions) yet the judge still refused to put him behind bars.

I guess the lesson is if you are going to steal - make sure you steal BIG!

First of all, innocent until proven guilty. That means we don't keep people in prison unless we think they might ditch the country before the trial. The judge decided that Madoff wasn't a flight risk, so there ya go. Don't worry, if he's guilty he'll do time. Just look at Conrad Black, his fancy lawyers didn't help him one bit!

Quoted from jonny_eh

Ya, I made the goof up of buying my house with a 5 year fixed mortgage, ugh.

You should look at the closed period of your mortgage. Usually on a 5 year fixed rate the closed period is 3 years and you can renegotiate then without penalty. It would be in the fine print. When your trying to make ends meet paying a fixed rate is like insurance that your payments won't get out of hand. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose but I can remember mortgage rates back in the 80's of 16 to 18% so when you have seen them jump that high you start to wonder if you would be able to afford to stay in your house. My first mortgage was 11 3/4% and that was considered a good rate at the time. The forces aren't in place right now for that to happen but rates are a consideration if you have budgeted at a certain rate and can't afford them to jump up.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. Your basically buying piece of mind of not having to watch the daily rate changes.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

You should look at the closed period of your mortgage. Usually on a 5 year fixed rate the closed period is 3 years and you can renegotiate then without penalty. It would be in the fine print. When your trying to make ends meet paying a fixed rate is like insurance that your payments won't get out of hand. Sometimes you win and sometimes you lose but I can remember mortgage rates back in the 80's of 16 to 18% so when you have seen them jump that high you start to wonder if you would be able to afford to stay in your house. My first mortgage was 11 3/4% and that was considered a good rate at the time. The forces aren't in place right now for that to happen but rates are a consideration if you have budgeted at a certain rate and can't afford them to jump up.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about it. Your basically buying piece of mind of not having to watch the daily rate changes.

It's only at 5.5%, and is just over a year old. It's only a point or 2 above the current rate, so it's not like I'm getting taken to the cleaners.

Quoted from jonny_eh

It's only at 5.5%, and is just over a year old. It's only a point or 2 above the current rate, so it's not like I'm getting taken to the cleaners.

2% on a $100,000.00 mortgage amortized over 20 years for your 4 remaining years is just over $7,000 interest. If you can get out in two more years and the rates are still 2% lower you have saved enough to buy a very nice TZ.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

2% on a $100,000.00 mortgage amortized over 20 years for your 4 remaining years is just over $7,000 interest. If you can get out in two more years and the rates are still 2% lower you have saved enough to buy a very nice TZ.

Sweet!

Quoted from jonny_eh

First of all, innocent until proven guilty. That means we don't keep people in prison unless we think they might ditch the country before the trial. The judge decided that Madoff wasn't a flight risk, so there ya go. Don't worry, if he's guilty he'll do time. Just look at Conrad Black, his fancy lawyers didn't help him one bit!

Trust me - the US puts plenty of people in prison before proven guilty in court and I disagree that he wasn't a flight risk.  There is security outside of his penthouse but the security is paid for by his wife to protect him from being killed - not to keep him from fleeing.
The bottom line is he confessed to his sons - and his sons called the authorities.
Madoff then confessed everything to the federal authorities.
His bail was 10 million dollars - one guess where he got that money from.
One of the conditions of his bail was that he had to get four people to vouch for him - he got two, his wife and his brother, no one else in his family including his children would do it.  The judge gave him bail anyway.
He clearly violated the conditions of his bail which proved he cannot be trusted - the judge allowed him to remain free anyway.
He not only ripped off rich people, he ripped off his own family, he ripped off countless charities that invested in his fund, at least two people who lost everything with him have committed suicide.
This wasn't a well meaning man who started a legitimate financial company who went bad - he's admitted it was a ponzi scheme right from the beginning.  Do you really think a man who would knowingly rip off charitable foundations would think twice about jumping bail if he had the chance?  The only thing keeping him inside is there are people standing outside hoping to rip him limb from limb if they ever got their hands on him.  Well that and the mob - whom he is also rumoured to have ripped off.

The point is that justice is supposed to be blind - but it sees the colour of green very well.

Are you saying the judge was bribed to grant bail? BTW, I agree Madoff is a complete sleezball that deserves hard time, but I also defend the system.

To be honest, I don't know why, I always thought judges and the justice system were supposed to do what a reasonable person would do but it seems increasingly they've become politicized (like every other aspect of America it seems).  Liberal judges will let accused sex offenders/killers out on bail and conservative judges will lock you up for saying that evolution is a fact.

I'd like to believe in the system as well but it sure seems like there are two systems - one for the weathy/powerful and another for the rest of us.