Quoted Text

The Big Guys Pinball team is pleased to announce that a licensing
agreement for Nucore has been finalized. WMS Gaming Inc. approved a
licensing agreement between Big Guys Pinball, Illinois Pinball
Corporation and The Pinball Factory. This agreement will allow Big
Guys Pinball to market and sell Nucore worldwide. Nucore will be
exclusively distributed by Pinball Life of Huntley, Illinois. Big Guys
Pinball will be releasing Nucore pricing and component details in
early March.

http://www.pinballnews.com/news/nucore2.html

Well great for them ... and here's to hoping to actually make one (fun) game out of it.

Thank you Steve!! (Ellenoff!)  (for those wondering, he made a lot of things happened in pinmame... and moved on to create Nucore when he made pin2k come alive)

Whlie you are thanking Steve, you neglected to include Chuck and Don...  While Steve was the original person behind this project, it would not be what it is today without the hard work of the other 2 guys.  (AFAIK Steve had shelved the project until Chuck and Don picked up the pieces and ran with it)

D

I am not going to thank anyone until they come out with a package that is affordable and fun to play.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

I am not going to thank anyone until they come out with a package that is affordable and fun to play.

Seriously?  Wow...

While it's true we don't know what the specifics are in terms of pricing, I don't quite understand the second part of your comment?  Fun to play?  Ummm...  If you enjoy playing RFM (or SWep1), 'nuff said.

And if you know ANYTHING about this product and what these guys have gone through to get it to this point, you SHOULD be thanking them regardless.  Hell... For Larry DeMar to be blown away with what these guys have done with what they had to work with I think sums it up quite well.

D

Let us dream... could this be the rebirth of Pinball 2000? Or even better Williams Pinball?

Quoted from necro_nemesis

I am not going to thank anyone until they come out with a package that is affordable and fun to play.

You should thank them for increasing the value of your RFM   I imagine we will start to see prices increase on RFM and SW:E1 based purely on the hope that something will be coming. Wouldn't it be awesome to play Wizards Blocks even if it isn't fully developed? Time will tell how far they take this. It's going to involve alot of folks to make a new playfield, new code, and new animations.

Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

You should thank them for increasing the value of your RFM   I imagine we will start to see prices increase on RFM and SW:E1 based purely on the hope that something will be coming. Wouldn't it be awesome to play Wizards Blocks even if it isn't fully developed? Time will tell how far they take this. It's going to involve alot of folks to make a new playfield, new code, and new animations.

Duane

Duane, you hit the nail right on the head.

I had the opportunity to speak with a few of the original P2K designers / programmers @ Expo last year, and I asked them about 3rd parties developing P2K kits with the emergence of NuCore.  They agreed that with this technology it could be possible (and potentially profitable) to make p2K game kits.  

Which steered the discussion towards possibly finishing Wizard Blocks, along with a few other titles that were on the drawing board at the time WMS scrapped the pinball division.  (Theatre of Magic 2 was one such title, and I believe there was a haunted house type theme also in the works)  Of course all of these kits would have to be licensed, which we all know is a whole other issue.

D

Anyone got an RFM they want to sell/trade

Quoted from Menace

I believe there was a haunted house type theme also in the works

You sure your not thinking of MB? In the movie tilt P2K is shown in a drawing as MB.

Let's test this theory. RFM FS. $5K .... any takers?

Quoted from necro_nemesis

You sure your not thinking of MB? In the movie tilt P2K is shown in a drawing as MB.

One of the designers stated it was strickly a haunted / haunted house theme.  (ghosts and whatnot, not monsters)

D

Quoted from Menace

And if you know ANYTHING about this product and what these guys have gone through to get it to this point, you SHOULD be thanking them regardless.  Hell... For Larry DeMar to be blown away with what these guys have done with what they had to work with I think sums it up quite well.

What exactly do I have to be thankful about? I don't see anything that I can qualify that statement with. I may be respectful of what they did but not thankful at this point.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

What exactly do I have to be thankful about? I don't see anything that I can qualify that statement with. I may be respectful of what they did but not thankful at this point.

We all know that pinball machines break down, nature of the beast.  When the time comes for your RFM computer to bite the dust (which it will), this would be a much better alternative to sourcing used obsolete parts. (not to mention the added feature set you get, and the improvements made over the original code)

If you're not thankful to have this as an option for your RFM, maybe you should take some of your spare time and come up with your own P2K emulator?

D

Quoted from Menace

One of the designers stated it was strickly a haunted / haunted house theme.  (ghosts and whatnot, not monsters)

D

The Haunted House theme got shelved in favour of Playboy.  

Quoted from Sparky

Let us dream... could this be the rebirth of Pinball 2000? Or even better Williams Pinball?

Not to be negative, but after talking to part of the Nucore team and Gene at IPB.... it sounds like it would take a lot of effort to get something going without having to deal with all these legalities and licenses.  Part of the P2k hardware, as I was told, is still under copyright.  Things like the guide/rail bars underneath are included in that.

Quoted from Monkeybug

The Haunted House theme got shelved in favour of Playboy.  

/me puts on his best Ed McMahon voice... "YOU ARE CORRECT SIR!"

I'll be thankful when this product hits market and proves to be influential to pinball. For now I am respectful.

Unfortunately I have seen enough commercial pinball ventures go awry in the past few years to make me scheptical.

I truley hope they are successful. Technological success yes. Business success we will wait and see.

Quoted from Menace

...Of course all of these kits would have to be licensed, which we all know is a whole other issue.

D

Why licenced???? Sure... maybe Wizard Blocks and TOM2 as they are probably Williams property, but the rest??? Pinball survived quite well for over 50 years without licenced themes. In fact, unless it is an AWESOME and timeless licence, I believe it actually hinders value and general appeal. Very few Sega/Stern pins gathered any excitement due to themes being dated not long after their release. Do you see anyone running to buy a Twister? Baywatch? Independence Day? Not really... Pirates of the Caribbean? Last I heard, not many jumping on them.  The same will happen with CSI and 24. There are some enduring themes like Simpsons, LOTR and South Park (God knows why...), but historically, themed pins are not necessarily a recipe for success.

Just look at the two P2K pins... RFM = non-licenced and did fairly well for a first example of something completely radical. SWE1 = licenced, total flop.

Am I the only one that would LOVE to see a cooperation between NuCore, IPB, CPR and possibly a designer in order to develop new kits, or even entirely new pins?

Imagine with the availability, simplicity and versatility of the NuCore system, in a new cabinet with an LCD monitor (cutting cost and weight), I still think that P2K, if followed through, would be a success... unfortunately to the expense of Stern.

Don't get me wrong... I like Stern... but I personally believe that the standard pin layout with a DMD is becoming old... costly mechanical toys can be replaced with visual toys backed by standard mechanical components.

Quoted from Monkeybug

Not to be negative, but after talking to part of the Nucore team and Gene at IPB.... it sounds like it would take a lot of effort to get something going without having to deal with all these legalities and licenses.  Part of the P2k hardware, as I was told, is still under copyright.  Things like the guide/rail bars underneath are included in that.

Hmm... I agree that there would be some negotiating with Williams on that... but I still see the potential. There is definitely money to be made there. Even though they have officially been out of the pin business for 10 years now, the name is still recognized and respected with operators. I am sure that if someone revived Williams Pinball, it would work.

Quoted from Sparky

Even though they have officially been out of the pin business for 10 years now, the name is still recognized and respected with operators. I am sure that if someone revived Williams Pinball, it would work.

They are marketing through Pinball Life which indicates to me their target market is guys like us and not operators.

I'm just thinking of the huge potential for new PB2000 games to hit the market now.  It's no longer a dead platform.  That has to mean something!

Quoted from Bish

I'm just thinking of the huge potential for new PB2000 games to hit the market now.  It's no longer a dead platform.  That has to mean something!

"Potential" Bingo!

It has to come to fruition to be anything more than that. This announcement is another step in the process.

Yes it is exciting to see progress, but to start thanking everyone is a little premature.

Quoted from Sparky

Why licenced????

See Monkeybug's post...  Pretty much all the P2K proprietary hardware / mechs are ALL patented by WMS, which means either IPB or TPF or BOTH hold the rights to these patents.  So if anyone produces a P2K "kit", they will undoubtedly be required to pay licensing fees to any / all of the parties mentioned.

So even though you could create a non-licensed theme for a P2k kit, you would still be on the hook for the mechanical stuff to allow it to drop into / interface into a P2K cab.

D

Quoted from Menace

See Monkeybug's post...  Pretty much all the P2K proprietary hardware / mechs are ALL patented by WMS, which means either IPB or TPF or BOTH hold the rights to these patents.  So if anyone produces a P2K "kit", they will undoubtedly be required to pay licensing fees to any / all of the parties mentioned.

So even though you could create a non-licensed theme for a P2k kit, you would still be on the hook for the mechanical stuff to allow it to drop into / interface into a P2K cab.

D

Nothing is impossible. Hopefully they will realize that they have the opportunity to build a pinball machine which is simpler and most probably cheaper to build but superior in MANY ways than what your competitor is selling.

Using a standard computer opens up a lot of doors... I am sure that building boardsets are a large cost for Stern, while computers will always be affordable.

There were 10403 Pin2k machines made and adding one or 2 playfields to them won't save pinball.

Face it people. Pinball 2k sucked. it killed pinball.

How many of you have one ?!  how bout 2? let's do a hand count?

Hey Sparks,

I just read through your other post about a co-op between mfg's and designer, and I too would love to see something like that happen, but I feel that is the pie in the sky.  (although Nucore would be the reason something like that would even be possible)

The one thing that I think many people overlook with NuCore is that it does not replace the O/S of a P2K machine, it merely emulates the original hardware, with a few tweaks thrown in for good measure. Things like polling the switches quicker so there are no missed switch closures (which is a problem with the existing hardware), as well as increasing the video frame rates and eliminating the slight 'pause' you see with the video when certain switches are closed etc. (oh, not to mention the jukebox and auto sense PF swap features!)  And to think they did all of this without ANY source code from WMS!  Pure reverse engineering.

As for Stern moving to this type of platform, I would love to see that happen but imagine the cost involved to design / implement?  Unless WMS cut a deal with them... yeah right.

D

Quoted from Mrhide

Face it people. Pinball 2k sucked. it killed pinball.

Oh here we go...  Phil hath spoken, so it must be true.

D

(I'd really like to know how many people actually feel that P2K was what "killed" pinball)

Quoted from Mrhide

How many of you have one ?!  how bout 2? let's do a hand count?

P2K was a commercial success. Slot machines killed pinball.

Nice picture,it just shows what a dink you are.
PM SPARKY and get you kicked out next.

Quoted from Menace

(I'd really like to know how many people actually feel that P2K was what actually "killed" pinball

owner: 1

feel like pin2k killed pinball:1

Quoted from poolman

Nice picture,it just shows what a dink you are.
PM SPARKY and get you kicked out next.

Lighten up. It was in response to Phil's negativity on P2K. I know Phil quite well and he is entitled to his opinion and I respect that opinion. It does not preclude me from taking a jab at him.

mess. Get a sense of humour for goodness sakes. This is getting tiresome.

Some people think slot machines are the best thing since sliced bread,they trade pinball machines for them.

Quoted from poolman

Nice picture,it just shows what a dink you are.
PM SPARKY and get you kicked out next.

do you like this one better?

Just a light shot at someone who got upset at a picture

SORRY,had to do it.

Thats a BETTER picture!

Quoted from necro_nemesis

"Potential" Bingo!

It has to come to fruition to be anything more than that. This announcement is another step in the process.

Yes it is exciting to see progress, but to start thanking everyone is a little premature.

I think you're missing the point.  Chuck and Don have done well to get their product to this stage.  I talked to them at Expo, and it was a nightmare dealing with all of the scattered PB2000 patents.  Apparenly Gene owns some, and Waynus owns others.  Then there was the matter of who owned the newer versions of the patents.

These are really sharp guys to take the idea, then develop it.  Others likely would have quit because of the patent issue.  The fact that they've made it through that stage speaks volumes about their tenacity.

I don't doubt that the product will make it to market, and will be a viable alternative to 12+ y/o hardware that will eventually fail.

It will likely encourage the development of new products, and may cause a reformation of the pinball industry.

Definitely something to be thankful for, IMHO.

I'm not sure why you try to rain on everyone's parade even though you fully understand where everyone is coming from.  People are just damn happy to see this finally coming about.  

[Next up on the necro_news channel:  why the sky *isn't* blue...]

Quoted from Mrhide

do you like this one better?

Love it! Made my day.

Bish we are talking about semantics here. I would even buy appreciative vice thankful because I can appreciate what they have accomplished. I will be quite thankful when I have one of these units in hand.

Quoted from Bish

[Next up on the necro_news channel:  why the sky *isn't* blue...]

It is blue during the day due to the shorter wave length in the blue spectrum being scattered in the atmophere. In the evening it may appear red as we are looking through slant range of the atmosphere which filters much of the blue reflected light out and allowing mostly lower frequency wavelengths to reach the eye.

... well, Necro did give a hand count... he owns 1.

Nah... that was funny.

I can see where Phil is coming from with this... there are not that many shots on a P2K, and for someone that is more of an expert at pinball might find it a bit boring as P2K was more leaning towards eye candy. But like I said, the potential is there. Create a challenging layout combined with P2K hardware capabilities, and it would be awesome...

P2K didn't kill pinball... slots didn't kill pinball... a few WMS corporate executives chomping on cigars, drinking the good stuff while sitting in their leather chairs did. They probably took the decision between the one about where to play golf the next day and the one about either sushi or French for supper.

P2K is a great platform, technically, nobody disputes that. Did it result in better games? Who knows? They only made 2! Imagine if the DMD era was over just as T2 and Gilligan's Island came out.

In the worst case, the nucore will allow P2K owners to fix their games for less $$, yay! In the best case, we could see entirely brand new P2K games, YAY!

Quoted from Sparky

there are not that many shots on a P2K, and for someone that is more of an expert at pinball might find it a bit boring as P2K was more leaning towards eye candy.

It's funny you should say that Sparky, because that is EXACTLY what the first two P2K machines were mandated to be. (this is directly from the design team)  RFM and SWep1 were designed as showpieces / eyecandy, and nothing more, to display to the masses what was possible.

To expect WMS to release the best P2K game (or any pinball) right out of the gate on a brand new platform is laughable.  Looking back at the first few games any manufacturer released on a brand new platform, you can see that none of them are considered to be their best effort.  It takes time for everyone involved to figure out what is and isn't possible with a new platform, what does and doesn't work, and how to get the most out of what you've got.

So given what WMS did with P2K in only 2 games, just imagine what we would have seen if they had stuck with it?  And I think most would agree that to pin (pardon the pun) the death of pinball solely on P2K is short sighted. (among other things)

D

Hell I really like what they did with RFM. In fact I think had it not been released and Nucore was now looking at releasing it I would be very interested. Thankfully it's already out there with custom cab art etc. RFM would have been the most interesting title to me had the shoe been on the other foot. More so than Wizard Blocks or any of the other offerings.

Quoted from TwilightZone

Wouldn't it be awesome to play Wizards Blocks even if it isn't fully developed?

It's going to involve alot of folks to make a new playfield, new code, and new animations.

Pfftt...,  give TomMy about 2 months and he'll have it all done  ....    

Steph

oh...,

and I own an RFM and a SW EP.1 Kit  

Do I think P2K killed pinball ..?   Not a chance.

P2k is the most revolutionary thing to happen to pinball since solid state.

Blaming P2K for killing pinball is laughable...



Steph

owners: 2

laugh: 3

I owned RFM and will own it again, so not you have 3

Quoted from Vengeance

I owned RFM and will own it again, so not you have 3

Jokker has an RFM, and so does PinballJM.
That's at least 3 RFM's in Ottawa alone  .

I think Aljo also recently bought a P2k  ( RFM too ? )

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they were at least 10 P2K's in the MAACA membership.

Steph

Quoted from Steph

Jokker has an RFM, and so does PinballJM.
That's at least 3 RFM's in Ottawa alone  .

I think Aljo also recently bought a P2k  ( RFM too ? )

I wouldn't be a bit surprised if they were at least 10 P2K's in the MAACA membership.

Steph

I WANT one... does that count?

Quoted from Sparky

I WANT one... does that count?

OOPS... almost forgot... a presdential bird-flip.

Quoted from jonny_eh

They only made 2! Imagine if the DMD era was over just as T2 and Gilligan's Island came out.

This is a great thought.  P2k never really got its bearings.  The designers admitted that the first game had to be full of eye candy.  The design team knew it was too dark and had issues.  This was to be resolved in future releases.

I think the system is great.  Best diagnostics, hands down.  Great playfield system that allows you to pull the whole pf out, and sit it on the floor.  Interchangeable design.  double key design to allow non-operators access to the playfield (and not the cash box).

I'd love to see a new game come out for Nucore it but it would take a lot of work.  I would even love to see alternate rulesets/games for RFM.

Quoted from Monkeybug

This is a great thought.  P2k never really got its bearings.  The designers admitted that the first game had to be full of eye candy.  The design team knew it was too dark and had issues.  This was to be resolved in future releases.

'tis a pity there are no archives of  rec.games.bagatelle for a year before & after "Ballyhoo"'s release in 1932.  Probably a lot of purists upset with the transition or focus to attract open wallets.  And the reality probably was a repeat of the big stink from 1869 when the plunger was added--upsetting those only used to original bagatelle as their daddy and grand daddy taught them from 1777 onwards.

how pinball resurfaces and in what form, nobody knows. The past isn't as glorious as we would like it to be.

at one point we have to forget the past and try new things. pinball was dying.. the arcades started to die shortly after as well.. something new has to happen.  or will only be kept alive in our basements till some kid smarter than us has an original idea