Gaming can make a better world

Well Adam, I really enjoyed listening to that presentation. She is a great speaker and if half of what she says comes true, we will be better off as a society. Very thought provoking.

Now if you will excuse me, I am going to go play my level 76 Mage on WOW.

borrrrrrinnnnnggg.

No thanks; I prefer to fill my life with old arcade games and attempt to live in the past when everything was soooo much simpler and way cooler. Rock On!

I love that site, check it out all the time.

my only question is, who the hell is TED?




























just joking  

Sorry to be a kill-joy, but that whole speech is just someone blowing smoke...

Gee,  a game designer suggesting we should increase our gaming time by 7x !!!  

Seems pretty self-serving to me...

But more importantly, I don't believe the basic premise of her core thesis,
that being that the positive aspect of gaming can be carried into real life.

There are no "Epic Wins" in the real world (or very very few anyways),
so anyone who caries that type naive optimism in the real world is delusional.

Also, I fail to see how the team playing in WoW caries into the real world.

The whole fascination about gaming is to ESCAPE the real world,
and not worry about the "hassles" of real life like education, family, financial challenges etc...

I could continue to rant , but I think you know where I stand on this one...



Steph

Quoted from Steph

But more importantly, I don't believe the basic premise of her core thesis,
that being that the positive aspect of gaming can be carried into real life.

There are no "Epic Wins" in the real world (or very very few anyways),
so anyone who caries that type naive optimism in the real world is delusional.

Also, I fail to see how the team playing in WoW caries into the real world.

Clearly, you haven't read "Ender's Game"....

I understand the concept behind this, how the positive attitudes faced in video games (such as the epic win) could maybe translate to real life confidence. However, the problem is that the reason why we're more competitive, more confident and more assertive in gaming is because there isn't the same "danger" as dealing with real life issues.  There isn't the same risk factor. If you lose at video games, you can always reload a game or restart it. When you're dealing with a multi-million dollar budget at a company (never mind trying to cure world hunger!), that's got a heck of a lot more at stake then your video game quest and a heck of a lot more pressure. Welcome to reality.

Pressure in the real world can be a good thing, as long as it is not 100% of the time. We need a bit in order to push ourselves and let me say, it feels good when you solve the issue.

Also should mention that "Ender's Game" is a great read! A book that is worth re-reading.

Quoted from McMean

Clearly, you haven't read "Ender's Game"....

Reading ?

Clearly that's not a life-skill if I can make the world a better place
by playing online games for 80hr /wk ...    

But I did see Avatar, does that count for anything ?    

Steph

Parts of it sound like she's read/watched Red Dwarf... and considering inventing a real Better Than Life game.

"There are no "Epic Wins" in the real world"

Well there are, but only if you cheat. (The rich get richer by any means necessary.)

"Positive Attitude" and "Confidence" and all of the "winning strategies" proposed by modern "Success strategies" are based on the willful suspension of disbelief (which applies in reverse to real life - i.e. in the light of reality we can prefer the implausible to the probable).  Think positive and you will attract positive. Beleive in the impossible and it will be possible. "The Secret." Believe in Jesus and he will save you.  It's all the same. There is some truth to it's ultimate effect (if you're lucky) but in a round about way it's all the same mind game.  The Zen Budhhists and British scoff at this, they just accept reality as it happens and are satisfied with whatever the outcome.  

Competition and challenge (even to the point of losing one's life) is seen as a positive human trait. The illusion of "life eternal" is required for it to work. We take advantage of it to get the thrill from dangerous activities like bungee jumping or car racing.  Armies take advantage of it by recruiting youths (i.e. those under 40 and some older fools who are willing to suspend their belief in death or who have decided to dedicate their lives to a greater cause (in fact our brain is specifically developed in order to suspend the acknowledgement of reality in order to foster competition to survive).  Without this "innocence" we would be defenseless against others willing to take advantage and vanquish us.

So there is no arguing that our subconsious "imagination" is a better place to live than "reality."  IF you treat reality the same way you do a game (i.e. take risks, enjoy the strategy, treat your competitors as enemies and your clients as vanquished serfs, and don't worry about the outcome) then you are more likely to succeed in your endeavour (and that applies to multi-million dollar company budgets as well).  Those companies that truly "beleive" they are the best, and take risks are the ones that both rise to the top of the heap (and, also, hit the ground hard in the end).

So as the gamer rises to the challenge with the unconscious notion of eternal life, so does the business champion (who suspends the threat of bankruptcy), and the defender (who suspends the threat of death and dismembership).

No guts, no glory.

I haven't seen the video yet but here is one example of a lesson being learned from video games being implemented in the real world.

Quoted from websherpa

"There are no "Epic Wins" in the real world"

Maybe in her line of work.

Quoted from jonny_eh

I haven't seen the video yet but here is one example of a lesson being learned from video games being implemented in the real world.

Lesson or invitation to serfdom?



But you have a point, perhaps I should invent a MMPOG that revolves around getting an assignment to create a web site, and the players earn points if their web designs (or maji skills as a programmer, etc.) are accepted by "imaginary" Ahem clients.

I spend way too much time on this site.

I am flabbergasted that she actually believes what she says. Gaming reduces obesity??? Yeah, right.... I think she is completely disconnected from her target consumer group, who sit on their asses all day, play WoW and eat garbage.

Real life sucks because there are consequences. Virtual life doesn't. You just start over a new game. What a complete load of horseshit. You want to save the world? Change your way of life and invent something to better it. You want to meet new people and make friends? Get out of your computer room and go outside. Talk to people.

All I see is a 10-minute infomercial to make you go see her new game and log on, making her rake in money.

I have seen many videos on TED that were great, but this woman is completely nuts.

I really like what she has to say and think it has some merit.  

I think the part you guys are focusing on is the fact that she wants people to play more games.

But the part your missing is that she says she wants those games to have a greater purpose to benefit the real world rather then virtual one.

She is trying to figure out a way to engage the gamer community in the real world the same way that games engage people in the virtual world.  Think of it in context with what we do here.  If our focus as a community was on some world related problem, imagine the potential that could bring.  The amount of time we all spend here and on pinball related items is a massive amount of time.  What her idea was to engage people in something the same way our hobby does but benefit the world as a whole.  If we were all as engaged in solving some real world problem the same way were are engaged about pinball, who knows what would be possible.  

But that's the problem, how do you engage people to solve these problems.  I know I sure as hell would much rather be talking pinball then world hunger.  That is where the game aspect comes in.  Focusing the same energy and drive that gamers as a whole onto a problem like world hunger rather then reaching the next level in WOW.  

To me as a gamer it's very interesting, if there was a game that involved problem solving for world hunger, or some other major world issue and it was fun to play I could see myself focusing some of my time/energy into doing just that.  

So I don't think it's as crazy an idea as some of you think it is.  

Quoted from Vengeance

So I don't think it's as crazy an idea as some of you think it is.  

It isn't a crazy idea; WarCrack absorbs too many wasted intelligent hours and energy. At a family function, I remember a family member asking aloud what my missing nephew ( 18 ) was doing. The answer was 'vids'. Later I heard he was actually fishing ... in WoW ... for hours. Whaaa???

It would be phenomenal if someone came up with a 'game' that was as addictive as WoW but was actually productive in some respect. You can count me in!

... as long as it doesn't come out the same time as Starcraft 2.  

It's a total load of B.S., perhaps the biggeset, stinkiest load I've ever seen shovelled.  Trying to validate the slothdom of gamers by touting them as an untapped resource that will one day solve the world's problems if properly focussed is pure hooey.   If gaming promotes problem-solving skills, then why are the students in my math class getting worse and worse at problem solving every semester ?   Why am I able to pick out the "gamers" in my class simply based on their inability to concentrate or socialize in any meaningful way ?  

Whenever I do get the opportunity to engage students by using technology to perform investigations or solve problems, the first one's to turn off are the gamers.  As soon as they realize the technology has purpose, they lose interest.  For most of them anyway, it is the mindlessness of gaming that they enjoy. They will do anything on a computer, even the most basic, unimaginative games, as long as it allows them to turn off.  

"Epic win" this.  What a crock.  

Quoted from mrniceguy

If gaming promotes problem-solving skills, then why are the students in my math class getting worse and worse at problem solving every semester ?   Why am I able to pick out the "gamers" in my class simply based on their inability to concentrate or socialize in any meaningful way ?

Perhaps you're still communicating on the 802.11a frequency and they're tuned into 802.11n?

Perhaps they'd prefer to take their Segways to class instead of your preferred mode of transportation - walking uphill both ways?

You might not be offering enough XP points. Your mana is low.

Quoted from mrniceguy

It's a total load of B.S., perhaps the biggeset, stinkiest load I've ever seen shovelled.  Trying to validate the slothdom of gamers by touting them as an untapped resource that will one day solve the world's problems if properly focussed is pure hooey.   If gaming promotes problem-solving skills, then why are the students in my math class getting worse and worse at problem solving every semester ?   Why am I able to pick out the "gamers" in my class simply based on their inability to concentrate or socialize in any meaningful way ?  

Whenever I do get the opportunity to engage students by using technology to perform investigations or solve problems, the first one's to turn off are the gamers.  As soon as they realize the technology has purpose, they lose interest.  For most of them anyway, it is the mindlessness of gaming that they enjoy. They will do anything on a computer, even the most basic, unimaginative games, as long as it allows them to turn off.  

"Epic win" this.  What a crock.  

Because you're not engaging your students in a way that's relevant for them.  That is exactly the issue she is talking about.  

I know I've been gaming since I was 4 years old, I hated school, I especially hated math (took me 3 semesters to get through grade 10 math) mainly because I didn't care, didn't find it relevant, fun, or helpful.  I get that there are general building blocks everyone needs to develop mentally properly but I don't think the idea of engaging people through games is a bad way of learning.  

Quoted from OTTOgd

... as long as it doesn't come out the same time as Starcraft 2.  

Ok time for the derail....


Yes we should get a game going when/if it comes out, I heard Oct. Anyone still play Starcraft?

Ok back on topic.

I get the issue she trying to find the link why gamers spend so much time and try to apply that to help solve world issues.  I think she is only taking the good stuff about hardcore gamers and ignoring the negative.  Social issues, BATHING, keeping a job, living in you parents basement just to name a few. When I was watching this, a movie Surrogates came to mind.  I though it was a little self serving that a game developer would be asking the world to play games MORE....

In the end I think the gamers take more risks in games because the payoff is very satisfying (who doesn’t want to be a winner) and the risks are small.  If it was as easy in real life we would all succeed most/all the time.

Just my .02

Lance

Quoted from Cobra99

Ok time for the derail....


Yes we should get a game going when/if it comes out, I heard Oct. Anyone still play Starcraft?

Yep been in the SC2 beta for a few weeks now

I used to play Starcraft a ton, but my PC is so out of date now that I won't be playing SC2

I almost want to upgrade my PC so I can play it but I doubt that will actually happen.  

Quoted from mark

Yep been in the SC2 beta for a few weeks now

I have a friend that has a beta key also.  I wanted to try, but this Life/Work thing got in the way.

Quoted from Vengeance

Because you're not engaging your students in a way that's relevant for them.  That is exactly the issue she is talking about.  

I know I've been gaming since I was 4 years old, I hated school, I especially hated math (took me 3 semesters to get through grade 10 math) mainly because I didn't care, didn't find it relevant, fun, or helpful.  I get that there are general building blocks everyone needs to develop mentally properly but I don't think the idea of engaging people through games is a bad way of learning.  

Do you really think I never considered "relevance" ?  But your argument is a common one used by people to pass off their obligation to persevere in an environment that they don't get completely excited about.  Don't you think I get a lot of "Sir, when are we ever going to use this ?"  Of course I do.  But when I tell them that it will be on the next test, and that their mark on the test helps them to pass a course, which leads to graduation, etc., I expect THAT to be the relevance for them.   What is relevant for anybody ?  Is your job relevant ?  Your hobbies ?  Your life ?   The answer to all those questions is "not really", but we persevere anyway.

In fact, it is those students who perform just for the sake of doing so that are most impressive to me.   Give a kid something he really enjoys and watch him excel at it.  hey, that's a neat thing to see.  Give a kid something that he doesn't really enjoy but watch him excel at it...THAT is really something !   If the world started using charges of "irrelevance" to bow out of every activity that it found less than 100% stimulating, we'd all be up sh*t's creek.

I don't care what this woman says.  She's an artsy from Berkley.  She came up with an innovative thesis that has garnered her a lot of attention and she is riding it out.  Did she learn all of HER skills from gaming ? No.  

Quoted from mark

Yep been in the SC2 beta for a few weeks now

How izzit?

Btw, Zergs Rule!!!

Quoted from Vengeance

Because you're not engaging your students in a way that's relevant for them.  

An impossible task.  I have 32 students in my Gr. 9 Geography class.  What hope in hell do I have to impress upon them the relevance of the Canadian Shield?  I can dance, do cartwheels, recite poetry, go on field trips, juggle, play songs on my banjo... there are always students who sit there with a blank expression on their face.  Now if I could make myself into an Orc from WoW.... then maybe I'd have their attention - for about 15 seconds, which is all most of them (especially gamers) are capable of.  

Quoted from mrniceguy

Do you really think I never considered "relevance" ?  But your argument is a common one used by people to pass off their obligation to persevere in an environment that they don't get completely excited about.  Don't you think I get a lot of "Sir, when are we ever going to use this ?"  Of course I do.  But when I tell them that it will be on the next test, and that their mark on the test helps them to pass a course, which leads to graduation, etc., I expect THAT to be the relevance for them.   What is relevant for anybody ?  Is your job relevant ?  Your hobbies ?  Your life ?   The answer to all those questions is "not really", but we persevere anyway.

See that's the problem, you expect that it should be enough that they want to pass the course.  What if that has no importance for them at all?  I know in high school I could have cared less if I passed a course or not and the way I got through most of my high school career was to make like so miserable for my teacher that they never wanted to see me again, so they passed me on to the next grade's teacher.  hell I'm not even sure I have a high school diploma (never bothered to go to graduation, didn't stick around till the end of the school year and applied for college as a mature student)  But in the end what turned it around for me honestly was the co-op program.  It was the only place I was able to excel because I felt like I was learning something that was relevant and useful rather then something that some bureaucrat in an office decided was a good curriculum.  

As for what's relevant to anybody, is my job relevant, yes it is, when I'm challenge and involved in things I really enjoy my job and excel at it because I find it relevant to my likes and interests.  My hobbies are relevant because they fill my need for competition and to be the best at what I do, and obviously my life is relevant to me because who else would it be relevant to.  

Quoted Text

In fact, it is those students who perform just for the sake of doing so that are most impressive to me.   Give a kid something he really enjoys and watch him excel at it.  hey, that's a neat thing to see.  Give a kid something that he doesn't really enjoy but watch him excel at it...THAT is really something !  

but what's to say that's not what those people fine relevant and are able to take joy from?  Some people actually do like academics, so it is something that is relevant to them and as a result they excel.  

Quoted Text

If the world started using charges of "irrelevance" to bow out of every activity that it found less than 100% stimulating, we'd all be up sh*t's creek.

But that's not the point that's being made.  The point that is being made is how do you tap into that potential and use it for the greater good rather then for nothing.  

Quoted from McMean

An impossible task.  I have 32 students in my Gr. 9 Geography class.  What hope in hell do I have to impress upon them the relevance of the Canadian Shield?  I can dance, do cartwheels, recite poetry, go on field trips, juggle, play songs on my banjo... there are always students who sit there with a blank expression on their face.  Now if I could make myself into an Orc from WoW.... then maybe I'd have their attention - for about 15 seconds, which is all most of them (especially gamers) are capable of.  

Not saying it's possible to take the existing material and change it into a way that's relevant for everyone, that's impossible, nothing is ever going to work for everyone.  

but like I've been saying it's an interesting concept to be sure.  

Quoted from OTTOgd

How izzit?

Btw, Zergs Rule!!!

Yerp!  Zerg Rush FTW!

Quoted from McMean

An impossible task.  I have 32 students in my Gr. 9 Geography class.  What hope in hell do I have to impress upon them the relevance of the Canadian Shield?  I can dance, do cartwheels, recite poetry, go on field trips, juggle, play songs on my banjo... there are always students who sit there with a blank expression on their face.  Now if I could make myself into an Orc from WoW.... then maybe I'd have their attention - for about 15 seconds, which is all most of them (especially gamers) are capable of.  

I wish I could play banjo.

Instead, I've finished every single quest in Elder Scrolls: Oblivion (including the expansions), Diable 2 (Amazon, Druid) Company of Heroes (and Opposing Fronts), Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War II, Portal and logged 260 hours as an Engineer in Team Fortress 2 (Spy and Medic: 2nd and 3rd, respectively, in hours logged).

... now it's pinball/arcade games.

Gamerz Rule!

This is the kind of intellectual masturbation you get from what I term professional students that ends up resulting in zero tangible results.

Turn the console off, get out from behind your TV and go out and get your hands dirty if you want to make the world a better place.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Turn the console off, get out from behind your TV and go out and get your hands dirty if you want to make the world a better place.

Over-rated. That's what The SIMS is for.

Quoted from Vengeance

Yerp!  Zerg Rush FTW!

Protoss all the way. Wait for my reaver warp...

Quoted Text

  This is the kind of intellectual masturbation you get from what I term professional students that ends up resulting in zero tangible results.

Totally agree...

Sorry I'm too busy playing video games to read this whole thread. My comment is if we all spent more time gaming, obesity and diabetes would exceed its current epidemic proportions. And gaming companies would earn bigger profits.

Further, the reality of life is a lot different from games and this woman's BS speech sounds like something she tried to whip up for her dissertation. In the field she works in I am sure it was well received by her peers.  And some probably thought it was a very brilliant presentation. I too want the demand for my product to increase 7X.

I once dated a woman who had authored several books. She was hired by a publisher and commissioned to produce manuals on several topics similar to the "Idiots" series but mostly health and medicine related. After a few years of this she decided to work toward a Phd. in some BS field in order to gain credibility for selling her own books. All I remember is that she was non-stop blah blah about her stuff which was interesting for a very short time and then became annoying and stifling. Kinda  made me feel that I had nothing valuable to say. She, on the other hand was a steady stream that just never ended like a Dostoyevsky novel. Unfortunately, in the field of liberal arts, sociology etc.,  sometimes people are just looking for stuff to fill books and sell  their peers (to be granted the doctorate), a lot of it better suited to line bird cages.

This woman's speech was no exception IMHO

Quoted from Vengeance

See that's the problem, you expect that it should be enough that they want to pass the course.

I never said that it should be enough for them.  BUT, it should be sufficient enough to motivate them for a finite amount of time.  You eat because you are motivated temporarily by hunger.  Even animals do that.  Anyone ( you included ) who as a high school student, was not able to make a connection between the long term gain of graduating and the temporary sacrifice of effort is being intentionally coy.

And at the risk of bursting your bubble, your personal experience in school is not relevant because guys like you and me are not who she is talking about.  You say that the co-op program offered you the relevance you were looking for and that your hobbies are relevant, etc.  Well, what good have you done for mankind ?  I know I've done nothing, and likely niether have you.  She's referring to some future where highly motivated people are tackling and solving important world issues.  

And that's what makes me laugh.  

She proposes that an increase in gaming activity might achieve this result.  Well, I don't care what argument anyone makes or doesn't make about how gaming improves critical thinking skills, or how it motivates or adds relevance.  The key factor missing is EMPATHY.   If gamers don't care about solving important issues, then it won't happen.  And that is where here utopian vision breaks down.  Gamers are not more empathetic than most people.  in fact, I would argue quite the opposite.  They tend to lack social skills to a greater degree than most other kids.  You are a self-admitted gamer from a young age, and you are also self-admittedly harsh in many of your interactions with people.  I have no problem believing you were unmotivated in school.  Withdrawing from the expectations of society in general is symptomatic behaviour of people who lack a strong empathetic nature.  They are confrontational and resistant to authority.   If this b*tch thinks that the world's ills are going to be remedied by an army of philanthropic gamers, she is sorely mistaken.  Perhaps scientists or sociologists with the aid of contemporary game theories can achieve some breakthroughs, but to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

And if you think your job or your hobby is relevant, then we are clearly using the word in different ways, because I don't think either of mine are relevant...not in the way she wants them to be.
  

Quoted from mrniceguy

And at the risk of bursting your bubble, your personal experience in school is not relevant because guys like you and me are not who she is talking about.  You say that the co-op program offered you the relevance you were looking for and that your hobbies are relevant, etc.  Well, what good have you done for mankind ?  I know I've done nothing, and likely niether have you.  She's referring to some future where highly motivated people are tackling and solving important world issues.  

And that's what makes me laugh.  

She proposes that an increase in gaming activity might achieve this result.  Well, I don't care what argument anyone makes or doesn't make about how gaming improves critical thinking skills, or how it motivates or adds relevance.  The key factor missing is EMPATHY.   If gamers don't care about solving important issues, then it won't happen.  And that is where here utopian vision breaks down.  Gamers are not more empathetic than most people.  in fact, I would argue quite the opposite.  They tend to lack social skills to a greater degree than most other kids.  You are a self-admitted gamer from a young age, and you are also self-admittedly harsh in many of your interactions with people.  I have no problem believing you were unmotivated in school.  Withdrawing from the expectations of society in general is symptomatic behaviour of people who lack a strong empathetic nature.  They are confrontational and resistant to authority.   If this b*tch thinks that the world's ills are going to be remedied by an army of philanthropic gamers, she is sorely mistaken.  Perhaps scientists or sociologists with the aid of contemporary game theories can achieve some breakthroughs, but to suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

And if you think your job or your hobby is relevant, then we are clearly using the word in different ways, because I don't think either of mine are relevant...not in the way she wants them to be.
  

I'm going to stop debating this with you because you completely keep missing the point entirely.  I'm not sure why you keep going off on this tangent about how what we currently are spending our time is never going to affect change in the world.  I 100% agree with you on that fact, what we all spend our time on now will never change anything or make anything better for the most part.  

The point she was trying to make was that if you were able to take the same target audience (hardcore gamers) and get them to focus with the same drive and determination on a world issue that they have when it comes to WOW or any other game that it could prove to be a huge resource.  She is not saying at all that WOW is the cure to the worlds problems.  What she is saying is that if she could figure out a way to focus those players on world problems the same way that Blizzard has them focused on WOW it would be an incredible untapped resource.  

What we do now, what little affect we have on the world, our jobs and our hobbies are not what's at issue.  What her point is rather then having these players focus their time on WOW figure out a way to have them focus on world issues.  

Think of it like a a really large think tank.  

Her example of the game she created for peak oil scenario, I don't believe in doomsday theory but still it's an interesting concept.  Create a game that tackles the idea of how to survive in a world with a peak oil crisis then assuming it's a game that WOW players would want to play, have the millions of players play out any number of scenarios that deal with surviving in a peak oil situation.  The information you could get from that kind of simulation with that many people would be amazing.  

That is the point.  

Not that any existing gaming platform should be used currently to solve the worlds problems but that if you could find a way to focus that same drive and determination of gamers into something positive rather then something useless the possibilities are endless.  

Does anyone remember how unproductive it was considered to hang around in a "real" pool hall and play "real" games...ummm... like, gasp,  pinball?  

Reality and imagination are the same thing, don't kid yourself, we use this physical contracption called a brain to filter reality via biomechanical sensors called eyes, ears, nose, etc.  - it's all just about perspective, incentive and power.

I have to laugh when I think how much we try to "disengage" our kids from the vids and push them outside to play.  (Fine there is a definite health benefit there.)  But then I think, "hey, if the rest of society communicates via online forums and MMPOGs and Twitter and such...shouldn't my kid have the skills to navigate and conquer that realm too?"

The only absolute I've found is that direct, one on one engagement with your kids keeps them "real" - whether you're reading to/with them, playing a vid with them, tossing a ball, or exploring tide pools.  As soon as you slink off to your computer and are relieved that they are taking care of themselves.... they are disengged and you have no idea what they are learning (good, bad, or ugly).

The point here though is that better learning is acheived through experience.  When creating a model trainer, the more "realistic" it can be made, the better trained the trainees will be, and the greater contribution they will make to the advancement of whatever skills they are being trained for.  Take soldiers for example.  In a war the best training is acheived in the real world battle, but the casualties make the losses high at the expense of some highly trained professionals.  If you are able to use simulators to pre-train, then those same would-be soldiers have a much better chance at survival on the battlefield where the real rewards and punishments ("incentives") will push them to greater acheivements with less casualties.

WOuldn't it be the same in business or any other scenario?

Quoted from Vengeance

I'm going to stop debating this with you because you completely keep missing the point entirely.  I'm not sure why you keep going off on this tangent about how what we currently are spending our time is never going to affect change in the world.  I 100% agree with you on that fact, what we all spend our time on now will never change anything or make anything better for the most part.  

The point she was trying to make was that if you were able to take the same target audience (hardcore gamers) and get them to focus with the same drive and determination on a world issue that they have when it comes to WOW or any other game that it could prove to be a huge resource.  She is not saying at all that WOW is the cure to the worlds problems.  What she is saying is that if she could figure out a way to focus those players on world problems the same way that Blizzard has them focused on WOW it would be an incredible untapped resource.  

What we do now, what little affect we have on the world, our jobs and our hobbies are not what's at issue.  What her point is rather then having these players focus their time on WOW figure out a way to have them focus on world issues.  

Think of it like a a really large think tank.  

Her example of the game she created for peak oil scenario, I don't believe in doomsday theory but still it's an interesting concept.  Create a game that tackles the idea of how to survive in a world with a peak oil crisis then assuming it's a game that WOW players would want to play, have the millions of players play out any number of scenarios that deal with surviving in a peak oil situation.  The information you could get from that kind of simulation with that many people would be amazing.  

That is the point.  

Not that any existing gaming platform should be used currently to solve the worlds problems but that if you could find a way to focus that same drive and determination of gamers into something positive rather then something useless the possibilities are endless.  

Actually Adam, you are missing the point entirely.  I guess this type of thinking is new and interesting to you, or perhaps some other people, but it's not new to me...in fact, it is very, very old and tired.   The philiosophy of "gaming" wasn't invented with modern day gadgetry and the gamers who spend countless hours mastering them.  When I was doing my Master in Philosophy, I had to do my share of research in this field, so none of what this woman says is new nor innovative to me personally.   The seminar rooms were rife with pontificating windbags who would clutch onto the latest theory and try to make it their own.  Blah, blah, blah.  Very tiresome.

There's really no way you could know this, which is why you have to be courteous and cautious when you engage in a conversation with people, either face to face or online, because you don't really know what they know.  Why you think I embarked on a tangent is because I found your initial response so off the mark that I had to address that instead of the original thread.  You seem to default to a position that if someone doesn't agree with you, then they do not truly understand what is being said...that they somehow must be "missing the point entirely."  Does it seems likely that everyone except you and the people that agree with you are all "missing the point?"  I don't think so.  At least give people the benefit of the doubt and assume that they might have good reason for disagreeing with your point of view.  A post-graduate degree doesn't make my interpretation of this woman's thesis correct, but it should help to convince you that I'm not prone to making superficial judgements of things I don't understand.  I understand it fully, I assure you.  It's just that I've heard it all before and it essentially means nothing.

When you say you are through debating with someone because they are clearly missing the point, you are essentially saying "I'm not wasting any more time on you, because you are obviously incapable of understanding what is really going on."  That is insulting in the extreme.  

I don't like anchovies and pineapple on my pizza at the same time. Although I do like a Hawaiian pizza sometimes. Bacon is my favourite.

Four toppings is the 'right' amount.

One of my favourite platitudes,  "Let's all agree to disagree" applies here. Just because someone does not agree, that does not mean they don't understand your point.


I personally believe gaming is a form of recreation. Not to be confused with humanitarianism or altruism. I cant do anything "recreational" that involves dealing with real human problems. It seems inappropriate.

I'll say this.

My intention was never to offend, my feeling was that your points were off base with what I was trying to get across and it really felt to me like they had nothing to do with the argument I was trying to present.  It's obvious that I'm either missing something in your argument Glenn or maybe it's just hard to debate an issue like this over the internet.

Either way I hope you didn't take my comment personally as that is not what I intended.  

So I'll agree with Warren on this one (I seem to be doing that allot lately ) and we can agree to disagree, or we can continue the debate in person over a beer at the next TOPL meeting   

So let's stop beating this dead horse and get back to what really matters anyway, Pinball!    

Quoted Text

  So let's stop beating this dead horse and get back to what really matters anyway, Pinball!    

AND beer.