That's it, that's it... keep talking down those Gottliebs, those terrible System 3's (that I love so much....) they should come down even more in price for sure!  (tongue-in-cheek)

Gottlieb had less success with their individual themes and licenses I believe, and as Adam will point out, their rule sets weren't always as challenging.  Essentially Gottlieb was competing both with Willams/Bally/Data East and improving complexity of all the innovations they were introducing, and they were fighting operators disdain for pinball machines that required a lot of servicing (as opposed to video games).

So they started making games more reliable, and less gimmicky (and trying to get them to market faster).  At the same time they tried to make pinball machines more exciting for non-competitive players, making large wins easier to acheive. The end result was that Williams/Bally/Data East had more appealing product, particular now in hindsight.

There are gems though. Stargate and Wipe Out! come to mind.

Gottlieb/Premier also had a much lower development budget in the 90's due to years of losing market share right from the first few years of SS machines. They really didnt have their corporate heart into the changover to SS from the late 70's while companies like Bally embraced it and just ran with it. So, as years passed they had less and less to work with.

GTB was in their heyday and market leaders until '77 and their competitors switching to the novel SS designs.

The earlier Sys 1 were more reliable on route, but are a  pain now when they have well exceeded their service life.  Sys 80 and SYS1 were considered trouble prone by operators when new. Sys 3 were reliable, but lacking design in many cases. A perfect example of how GTB fell behind is how in the late 70's to early 80's their sounds were boops and beeps when WMS had games like Gorgar including speech, and Bally had great licensed games like Kiss with musical sounds.

So the fact that Premier GTB even survived to the mid nineties was probably more due to the assets available from being aquired by Columbia pictures in the late 70's, and then again in the 80's by another corporate entity. Anyone can make the odd success, but they were consistently sucking the hind teat, so to speak.

Bally also fell behind heading into the late 80's and were also cash strapped. But they had strong video games assets (Midway) as well as a brand known for great earlier SS titles before their quality declined. So, WMS made the right move and just bought them out so they could fill a bigger chunk of market demand and eliminate competition. THAT is where the pinball development money was in the early 90's.

Kudos to Gary Stern/Joe Kaminkow as the small guys keeping the ball rolling, so to speak, right until now.

Quoted from frosken

Think about cars...

Which one is more sought after: Renault Fuego or a Porsche 924?

A car enthusiast might go for a Fuego due to its rarity, but a sportscar enthusiast would go for the 924. pricewise, I would think the Fuego would be cheaper.

Well, that, is about the difference between the Gottlieb and WMS DMD-era machines.

WMS had great titles, good software, neat toys and the 'fun' factor is almost way up there'. On the GTB-side, well...they're built solid, but the fun factor, toys and titles aren't in the same ballpark as wms.

2 similar titles: Indy500 and Mario Andretti...play both and you'll mostlikely stop playing Mario after one ball.

IMHO, Some GTB games are ok...for a few games whereas a WMS have some games that you'll enjoy for YEARS.

Then again, we're lucky to live in a land where there are hundreds of pinball titles available and YOU can pick and choose which one YOU like.

Supply and demand is important if you're looking to buy, but then try to sell the machine. Don't get me wrong, you should look at pinballs like a HOBBY and not an INVESTMENT (many members here could give you great stories about this statement).

It doesn't matter what others think...buy what YOU like and YOU want. However, bear in mind that even in the pinball world, there are some "Yugos", "Skodas" and "Ladas"... their resale value is rock bottom and the 'fun' factor will last a gas tank.

mes deux cennes,

frosken

tks for sharing but don't go for the Renault Fuego it was my first car in the 80's...........worst car ever.  You had to bring back painful memories

Quoted from gmaranda

tks for sharing but don't go for the Renault Fuego it was my first car in the 80's...........worst car ever.  You had to bring back painful memories

So...

French engineering = Gottlieb
German engineering = WMS/Bally

That French/German comparison doesnt exactly work here.

One thing about these Gottlieb/Premier machines is they're reliable tanks. Very little goes wrong with them, so you cant compare the engineering that way. They're a little different to work on but laid out pretty easy to find. If anything Gottliebs are the German engineering.

Stan

Quoted from Pinballed

That French/German comparison doesnt exactly work here.

How about this:

Gottlieb = Toyota
Williams/Bally = Ferrari

No one would argue a Toyota is less expensive to maintain and more reliable than a Ferrari, but....which is more fun to drive?  

Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

How about this:

Gottlieb = Toyota
Williams/Bally = Ferrari

No one would argue a Toyota is less expensive to maintain and more reliable than a Ferrari, but....which is more fun to drive?  

Duane

When the accelerator sticks, the Toyotas become real fun!

Quoted from TwilightZone

How about this:

Gottlieb = Toyota
Williams/Bally = Ferrari

No one would argue a Toyota is less expensive to maintain and more reliable than a Ferrari, but....which is more fun to drive?  

Duane

Whoa there cowboy.... Ferrari my a**... they are great... but not THAT great. Take it from an engineer. And also, some late Williams machines are not THAT fantastic.

I think part of the problem with Gottlieb's is that for the longest time they had such a small design, art and programming team (sorta like Stern right about now).  

Williams had all the top guys because they could pay them.  In an interview with Python Angelo, he said Williams was paying him over $100k per year at one point (in the 80's).

Quoted from machine.slave

I think part of the problem with Gottlieb's is that for the longest time they had such a small design, art and programming team (sorta like Stern right about now).

Except Stern has the benefit of being able to use music directly from movies and photoshop game artwork, including DMD animations.

Quoted from jonny_eh

Except Stern has the benefit of being able to use music directly from movies and photoshop game artwork, including DMD animations.

Which is great to a point -- it lowers their production costs.. but I think DMD animations of movie clips look like crap.  Same with Photochopped playfield art.  Bring back the real DMD animations and artwork.. created by, you know, ARTISTS!

Quoted Text

but I think DMD animations of movie clips look like crap.

Agreed! It is OK to a point, but not when that's all they do. That's why I really like the DMD animation on TSPP...is is actually animation.