Why these three? Because they're the 3 DMDs in the Williams PBHoF for 360/PS3. The great thing about that game is it gives you step by step instructions on how each game works, which is great for these complex games. I actually understand what the frak is happening in TOTAN!

Anyways, of these three machines, which do you think:
1) Has a better theme/artwork
2) Has a better playfield layout
3) Has the best rules

Quoted from jonny_eh

Why these three? Because they're the 3 DMDs in the Williams PBHoF for 360/PS3. The great thing about that game is it gives you step by step instructions on how each game works, which is great for these complex games. I actually understand what the frak is happening in TOTAN!

Anyways, of these three machines, which do you think:
1) Has a better theme/artwork
2) Has a better playfield layout
3) Has the best rules

1) MM
2) TOTAN
3) MM

1) MM
2) NGG
3) They are all pretty shallow games, of them all I find NGG the most fun.  TOTAN I don't like I don't like the flow I don't like the rules and I just in general don't enjoy the machine at all.  MM is fun to play but end of the day it boils down to 5 shots (Catapult, Loop, Left Ramp, Castle, Right Ramp) that you just have to shoot over and over and over again, throw in a multiball or two which is again pretty much just the same shots again.  Don't get me wrong I like the game I just don't think it's as great as everyone makes it out to be.

NGG has some great variety and difficulty, the hole in one shot is quite satisfying the random awards off the wheel always keeps you guessing you'll never see the same modes in the same order twice.  A nice variety of shots and with the golf theme it makes you shoot them in a nice varied order.  Good humor and a well integrated theme.  

Yikes, if those games are shallow, what's deep?

I admit I was a bit surprised by MM's rules (which I never bothered to learn before). It's remarkably similar to the hated IJ4's rules, no?

Quoted from jonny_eh

Yikes, if those games are shallow, what's deep?

TSPP, LOTR, TZ, ST:TNG, SM, FG, CV, etc.

MM is repetition personified, done very well yes, but everything to that game is just doing the same thing over and over again until you achieve said goal.

TOTAN, collect the jewls, save the princess, mabye throw in a MB or two, spin the lamp a bit and hammer up your Bonus X if you want a good score.  

NGG, has an extensive list of modes and things to do, problem is in the end it boils down to shoot the lit shots and putt out

There's no strategy, no risk vs reward (ok there is a bit in MM with getting all the multiballs in one saucer shot) no stacking and very little variety.  The games I listed above (TSPP and LOTR espically) there is just so much to do and some many possibilities, that is my definition of depth.  

**EDIT**

Yes and no about MM being like IJ4.  IJ4 has more repetition then MM as there is very little value to doing the loop, ramp or scoop, so really you are down to the captive ball, Arc and Raisng scoop for things to focus on and you can't stack and of it together.  IJ4 has been growing on me a bit, it's a very simplistic game but the added element of the map room does keep it interesting from time to time, trying to up your Bonus X and keep double scoring going while running a multiball or mode adds an extra level of depth that makes it more interesting.  But the theme integration, humor and over all fun of MM is heads and tails better then IJ4.

In terms of theme, I think MM has that hands down. The theme is awesome and well done. I love the humour and the castle is one of the coolest toys ever. I don't think it is all that repeative. There is enough doing on that you don't get bored. That said....

In terms of gameplay, though, I have always enjoyed NGG more than MM. I like MM, don't get me wrong, but I find NGG just plain fun. The art isn't up to Youssi's normal standards, but still nice. The humour is up there with MM. The hole in one shot is challenging. The game has great flow (so does MM) -- it's probably Lawlor's best in terms of flow although RBION also has great flow. It's got some incredibly fun modes. I love RIP OFF. The wizard mode is fun and challenging enough that you won't get it every game, but obtainable meaning you will get it every now and again. T

ToTAN is a fun game, but I really cann't comment on it. I've played it and enjoyed it, but don't know the rules well enough. That said, I haven't been so impressed that I felt I had to own one.

Duane

1)MM
2)MM
3)MM

Love that game! Best pin ever made.

Doesn't TOTAN + NGG = MM in terms of price?  At that point, the choice is obvious to me..  

Quoted from machine.slave

Doesn't TOTAN + NGG = MM in terms of price?  At that point, the choice is obvious to me..  

Actually TOTAN + NGG + $1000 to 2000 = MM

Quoted from SquidVicious

Actually TOTAN + NGG + $1000 to 2000 = MM

I would have to disagree with that, as a nice TOTAN is easily a 3K+ game (avg is $3400 US) and NGG is a $2400 game.  That puts you right in the ballpark for a MM.  Probably not a fully restored mint example of MM, but a MM none the less.

D

Quoted from Menace

I would have to disagree with that, as a nice TOTAN is easily a 3K+ game (avg is $3400 US) and NGG is a $2400 game.  That puts you right in the ballpark for a MM.  Probably not a fully restored mint example of MM, but a MM none the less.

D

Fair enough I definitely see TOTAN come up for under 3K (not way under but under) and combined they are probably $5500ish ... but that would be for a nice TOTAN and a nice NGG ... me thinks that a nice (not mint)  MM would be more than $5500 (closer to 6500)

Quoted from Menace

I would have to disagree with that, as a nice TOTAN is easily a 3K+ game (avg is $3400 US) and NGG is a $2400 game.  That puts you right in the ballpark for a MM.  Probably not a fully restored mint example of MM, but a MM none the less.
D

I agree with Doug in terms of TOTAN, but NGG is also a $3K USD game in collector condition. With slam wear you can find them in the $2,400 or less range, but a collector condition game commands a higher price.

That said, a "decent" MM will set you back $5K to $5.5K USD. At that price the playfield will have wear, cabinet could have issues, there will be a broken plastics, etc.

I don't think Squid Vicious is that far off the mark, though. A nice TOTAN + a NICE NGG would still require $1,000 to $2,000 to get an equally nice MM.

Duane

Quoted from SquidVicious

Fair enough I definitely see TOTAN come up for under 3K (not way under but under) and combined they are probably $5500ish ... but that would be for a nice TOTAN and a nice NGG ... me thinks that a nice (not mint)  MM would be more than $5500 (closer to 6500)

Sure post this while I am typing up a response agreeing with you  

Next time someone finds a MM for 5.5K be sure to send it my way, I can't say I've ever seen one that low.  6K and above yea I've seen that, sub 6K I've never seen one.  

A nice MM is minimum $6.5KUSD and then you have to get it into Canada. Easily gonna cost you $7.5-8K to get one. There are not many around here and the ones that are around are loved by their owners. As Adam says any $6K MM  would sell easily. I have been offered much more than that for mine and have declined. Replacement cost is to high.

Quoted from jonny_eh

1) Has a better theme/artwork
2) Has a better playfield layout
3) Has the best rules

1) Subjective
2) Totan (for the interesting ramps and the fun of spinning the lamp) MM is a better fan layout though.
3) MM

They're all good games. The main question is how much do you want to spend. All are going to give you great pinball entertainment.

$2400 for NGG? Probably a bit on the shy side, but since I would be glad to pay that for one, sure that's a good number.