Further to Sparky's post in the No Fear thread, how do you think pins could evolve further (Pin2K aside)?

I mean realistically... not ball teleporters or anything silly like that.  

I'd love to see an LCD screen in place of the DMD.  That's the biggest improvement I think they could make right now.  I mean really, DMD's and LCD's have to be close in price by now...

What else?  What other current technologies could be implemented?

My guess is if LCDs were cheap back when they designed p2k, it would have turned out different. Popadiuk's design ( display in the backbox) may have won out.

I'm guessing the reason Stern hasn't made the change is two fold. They can't afford a hardware platform change, they can barely afford to produce machines in the short tem (and in the long run, they probably won't be able to stay open). They should have planned this upgrade years ago, now it's too late.

The second reason is that it costs a lot more money to produce colourful animated content for an LCD than for a DMD. It was this reason that pin2k machines took longer to design and cost more. Williams changed their schedule with pin2k because of the amount of animations needed for the display.

Another suggestion:
Add a computer controlled opponent. It would work by using a camera that monitors the ball's position. There are freely available libraries for object tracking. It would be fun to try to nudge the table to screw up a computer opponent. The computer would have the advantage of being really good, so nudging is your best weapon against it

It would obviously cost a lot to develop, but once the system is designed, it wouldn't cost much for each additional game. The system can just learn what shots work for each game.

Start with a generic cabinet with an lcd backbox installed. Use a nice IPS or VA lcd panel as the playfield with a plexi cover and the ramps and habitrails would sit on top. Flippers, kickers and pop-bumbers would have to be re-engineered to 'float' above the playfield as well. New game = new 'ROM' program and new ramp/flipper/pop-bumper/toys skeleton placed on top.

New pinball machines could be modular DIY kits. Video playfields could be open-source programming. Imagine the playfield graphics shifting to suit the 'mood' of each mode? Download programmed game with graphics, buy specific playfield structures that link together or attach to the sides/back = new game!

Pros: kinetics are still there. Playfield will always be fast and easily replaced.
Con: no more screen printed glass or playfields.

Make it so, k'thanx.  

Quoted from OTTOgd

Start with a generic cabinet with an lcd backbox installed. Use a nice IPS or VA lcd panel as the playfield with a plexi cover and the ramps and habitrails would sit on top. Flippers, kickers and pop-bumbers would have to be re-engineered to 'float' above the playfield as well. New game = new 'ROM' program and new ramp/flipper/pop-bumper/toys skeleton placed on top.

New pinball machines could be modular DIY kits. Video playfields could open-source programming. Imagine the playfield graphics shifting to suit the 'mood' of each mode? Con: no more screen printed glass or playfields.

Make it so, k'thanx.  

That's a great idea. And the flipper mechanics can be located under the apron. It could work! Of course, there'd be no death saves or bang backs.

Eliminate the huge web of under playfield wiring. Put everyuthing in series with addressable nodes. Also, make it possible to have a single controller (replace the MPU pcb) that can wire to several machines via USB or similar . This would make the software much more easily manipulated and one controller could run a wall of machines, with a pc type setup.

Make a playfield that can be reconfigured (ramps and all) via a modular system. Upgrades, add-ons and mods could then be sold as a package or separately without a complete playfield swap, sort of an evolved P2K.  The customer could almost design their own playfield. A software package could be available to do a sort of white board test and then order the ramp, kicker, loop or whatever they offer.

Of course LCD needs to replace DMD and is way overdue.  To me, was just an evolution of digital scoring displays to begin with.

That could work, except you're forgetting the mechanics that make things like pop bumpers and kickers work, which is usually housed under the PF.. unless there's a different way to make the balls fly without using coils (maybe magnets?)

I think it could work. However, a new playfield components system would have to engineered to be as flexible as possible. Like a Thomas the Train track. I would imagine slotted surrounds to fix components.

Community, open-source, pinball game making on a more physical level could be wild. Custom Visual/Future/Pinmame tables taken to the next level. Could be huge. Those with ADD could go nuts.  

Quoted from machine.slave

That could work, except you're forgetting the mechanics that make things like pop bumpers and kickers work, which is usually housed under the PF.. unless there's a different way to make the balls fly without using coils (maybe magnets?)

I didn't forget; powered from below but make them work from above ... somehow.

The slingshot/pop bumpers can be turned upside down. The coil can be above the playfield, housed in some kind of tower. I'm thinking of something like the pop bumpers on TSPP (how they look).

PM sent to Gary Stern

Some of the things I've thought of over the past little while...

-Small OLED displays integrated into the PF, either as inserts or behind drops etc.  You can change the insert based on gameplay / mode / progress etc.  Could also display video on them  (You could probably have them on drop targets themselves but they probably wouldn't take the punishment)
-Better use of magnets
-Continuing what P2K started, because they just barely scratched the surface
-LCD display in the head and a mode in the game where a PF mounted camera is enabled and you need to shoot the ball at targets w/ the camera (or something like that)
-More tournament play

Just some of them off the top of my head...

D

To add to what has already been said:

- continue to develop the P2K platform

- LCD or holo-display like on P2K, and also used as an animated translite

- common cab for all, just different and readily available cabinet art decals

- common wiring on all cabs with a multi-pin connector between the machine harness and playfield harness

- playfield with a unit with integrated programming. You plug it in and the CPU detects it, takes the programming from the playfield and you have a new pin

- a simple CPU hardware base using a common computer with readily found parts and a custom driver board run by the CPU, à la NuCore

- a simple yet nice sounding speaker system (easy and cheap with a standard computer...)

So all that would basically be needed to change the pin would be to disconnect and pull out the playfield, put in the new one and you have a new pin. Sideart could also be in a package. Less waste, less trouble. So you offer operators a quick upgrade to an older pin and give it new life on the road. too many pins end up off route after 3-4 years. Thhis give the opportunity to put them back out.

The problem with playfield kits for operators is that they cannot resell the old machine, which I'm sure makes them recover a lot of money. For the home user though, it's huge!

I would have liked to see the concept of P2K continue to evolve. The initial two games are basically proof of concept rushed out to market. There was alot more that could have been done with the platform. Supposedly Wizard Blocks was going to be a big improvement, but we never got to see it.

Of course, for pinball to evolve there has to be a market to fund further development. Home consoles have killed pinball. My kids would rather play the Wii than pinball.

Sad, but true story. My son asked to play the Williams Pinball for the Wii. I said sure and asked what game he wanted to play. I figured he wanted to play Black Knight or Taxi. He wanted to play Funhouse. I was dumb struck. "But we have the real pinball in the basement. Don't you want to play the real thing?" I asked. His reply, "Nope, it's easier on the Wii". Ouch!

There will soon be a RFM in my basement. I want to see how they will react to it. They have never seen one. I'm hoping it wins them over to the pinball side.

Duane

Just like to add my fist experience with RFM....

RFM was the first game, in a long time, that generated real excitement. I had heard about it, but hadn't seen it in person yet. I was really looking forward to getting a chance to play it. It showed up at the South Keys theatre. Back then, it was the best theatre in Ottawa and had a good crowd.

I couldn't believe it when I saw it standing in the corner, but I couldn't play it. It was surrounded by kids eagerly paying money to play it. After my movie, it was still surrounded by kids. I had to go back during the day to play it and I was blown away. I really thought it was the future of pinball. Little did I know it would be one of the last games made by Williams.  

Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

I would have liked to see the concept of P2K continue to evolve. The initial two games are basically proof of concept rushed out to market. There was alot more that could have been done with the platform. Supposedly Wizard Blocks was going to be a big improvement, but we never got to see it.

Of course, for pinball to evolve there has to be a market to fund further development. Home consoles have killed pinball. My kids would rather play the Wii than pinball.

Sad, but true story. My son asked to play the Williams Pinball for the Wii. I said sure and asked what game he wanted to play. I figured he wanted to play Black Knight or Taxi. He wanted to play Funhouse. I was dumb struck. "But we have the real pinball in the basement. Don't you want to play the real thing?" I asked. His reply, "Nope, it's easier on the Wii". Ouch!

There will soon be a RFM in my basement. I want to see how they will react to it. They have never seen one. I'm hoping it wins them over to the pinball side.

Duane

Haven't you learned? Don't buy pinball for other people. THEY DON'T CARE

I was just checking out the Kingpin manual (why not?!) and it had this:

Quoted Text

One of the playing styles is a standard 3-ball game. The other is a bizarre timed game in which the player is given unlimited balls, but with a twist: the player has a "power meter", and it must not be allowed to dwindle to zero, or the flippers will go dead and the game will be over! Various goals in the game will raise the power meter, so the player can continue playing. Still, it is much harder and more frustrating than the standard 3-ball game. A unique feature of Capcom hardware is the software-adjustable flipper power, and the game uses this to good effect: the flippers gradually go weaker, accompanied by sound effects, when the player runs out of time. The player can see the flippers moving slower until they no longer move at all!

That's cool. More innovation like that plz!

The P2K platform was definitely a positive step in the evolution of pinball.  The design would have allowed for continual hardware upgrades over time to add horsepower.  Imagine a hybrid of LOTR or TSPP with its deep rulesets and a P2K game.  RFM and SWE1 were rush jobs to save Williams pinball.  Had it been a different circumstances, who knows what P2K could have achieved.

Quoted from pinsRfun

Had it been a different circumstances, who knows what P2K could have achieved.

After speaking with a number of the P2K designers @ Expo they all confirmed that both RFM and SWep1 were more proof of concept games than anything else.  They also discussed some concepts/themes being worked on for the platform, and some of the ideas they were working on were brilliant. (Theatre of Magic 2 was one such concept)

D

Interestingly enough, if pinball wasn't in the tank at the time, the P2K platform probably wouldn't have been created.  Still, if only SWE1 was a better movie and more units were sold!  

P2K was making WMS $$ at the time they killed the pinball division.  They closed pinball for other reasons........  (they did not expect the design team to come up with a winner)

D

Quoted from Menace

P2K was making WMS $$ at the time they killed the pinball division.  They closed pinball for other reasons........  (they did not expect the design team to come up with a winner)

Sadly you are 100% correct. I have also spoken with some Williams folks and it is heart breaking what Williams did to ensure Williams Pinball could not succeed once they decided to get out of pinball.

P2K could have been truely amazing. What we got is only a scratch on the surface. And I don't think the platform will ever be revised -- in a commercial way (there are still rumours Wizards Blocks kits will be made) which is really a shame.

Duane

Where could evolve (ignoring there is zero market for such a thing)...

Some areas, I can think of:
payment - moving away from coin-drops and into swipe&pay / interact like payment models (either by card or mobile)
integrated into mobile device - ecosystem of the mechanical pinball and a mobile game.   Do well on the game and unlock events on the pinball (and vice versa)
more awareness of the player - whether the player logs in / has an RFID - or other sensors to be aware of their age / gender / interestes...

The LCD integration?   Sure, but then do we need more "flipper" buttons...

Sadly, Pin2k was destined to fail whether it succeeded or not... if that makes any sense

I'm not defending Williams for shutting down pinball but I can see their rationale.  Look at the production numbers for RFM vs SWE1.  There were about 6900 RFMs made compared to 3500 SWE1.  They saw the 50% drop in orders and closed shop.  What it showed was that they felt the new platform had no legs.  Combined with the fact that their slot division was on the upswing, investing more of their capital into a growing industry made more sense than investing in a dying industry.

If there is to be any future in P2K, it will be up to nucore, the hobbists and someone with deep pockets and passion for pinball (IPB?)
Not holding my breath on Wizard Blocks though.

Pinball is all about a 1 1/4" steel ball and ones ability to keep it in play. Move too far away from that with innovation and you've lost the attraction of it being pinball and created something else. Unfortunately the simple skill of keeping the ball in play is a dying art. You can dress it up with any number of innovations but the underlying issue is people haven't the skills to benefit from the game.

Watching pinball evolve through the mid 70's to late 90's there was also an evolution of the players that played them. Take the basic skill and apply it to newer innovations but keep the basic principles of the game. Through better technology the atmosphere created out of light, sound and animations helped transcend pinball into something that was greater than the sum of it's parts. You felt as though you were trying to defeat the alien onslaught vice flipping around with art that provided a theme but really had no integration into the game you were playing.

I have suggested before that rules that could increase in complexity based on the games ability to assess ones skill, which would be beneficial for appealing to all level of players. The rewarded points would also be a function of what level the game was playing at. For example a simple two shot combo if successfully made would open an option to a three shot combo. This is an over simplification of what could be done but is a basic example.

It would be nice to see some sort of competitive pinball where there is a screen of some type to show you a progress report against your competitors during play. Actions taken in the game against competitors could change the competitions game rules so as to allow you to put road blocks into the other players games by completing certain shots. Strategies could be to either play offensively leaving you open to attack while trying to maximize scoring or selecting shots that disadvantage other players games but are less lucrative and thus playing defensively.

At it's core, pinball is an entertainment device.  The player base is barely big enough to support the industry at the present time.  How does it reach out and attract the public who aren't passionate about pinball but still want to be entertained?  Take my wife as an example of the general public who doesn't care about pinball.  She will go and play SWE1 on occasion.  I asked her why SWE1.  She saids she can understand what to do in the game.  The video integration provides a better visual to progress through the game.  I asked her what's wrong with the other DMD games.  She replied that there were too many inserts flashing and she has no clue what to do.  That's what I think the general public would feel if they stepped up to a DMD game.  Unless you take the time to learn the game, it's too complicated and a turn off.  

There's too many entertainment options available today that attracts the general public better than a pinball machine.  We don't have a lot of time and don't want to have to learn the intricate details of the rules.  So a game that helps you along the way so you feel you are progressing is very attractive.  DMD sorta does that but players are staring at the playfield most of the time and barely watches the DMD.  P2K took that into your face and integrated it into the game.  You can't play the game without looking at the video.  

With today's inginuity in manufacturing, I really feel that quality moving targets would add a positive to game play. I know some machines have moving targets but I have always thought these were not done very well. I realize that the moving target(s) have to take a great deal of abuse so it is hard but a clothes line type system in the top third of the playfield could add a fun demention. It could be incorporated in many ways and themes.

Stern could always hire this guy and see where they get to:
http://www.ted.com/talks/pranav_mistry_the_thrilling_potential_of_sixthsense_technology.html