I have to ask to all of you experienced buyers and sellers.  What is going on with the difference in price for the DMD made by Williams over the one made by Gottlieb in early 90's. I have been shopping just to see what I would like to buy but cannot help noticing the difference in price for similar conditions machines but made by different companies.  It may be happening with other brands but I find Gottlieb to be quite noticeable.

Am I wrong?  Any expert (or not) opinions?

tks

I wonder what difference you're noticing...can you explain?  Are you saying Williams or Gottlieb is more expensive for similar years, features etc? Because I have found prices to be pretty fair for both if you look long enough and avoid gougers.

Stan

I get the feeling Gottlieb are usually cheaper over Williams for similar features.  I may be totally wrong but that is why I am asking.  

tks

Simple...

Supply and Demand

Williams titles are more in demand and thus have a higher value

Gottlieb titles are in less demand and thus have a lower value

**EDIT**

I just looked up on the IPDB every game made by Gottlieb/Premier from 1984 - 1996, not even one of those games is on my personal list of games I'd like to own.  Looking at the list I can't even see a single title where I think, yea that game was fun to play.  I personally have never found a Gottlieb/Premier game that is really all that fun to play.  

**EDIT2**

but if you go back further they have some better titles with things like Haunted House and Black Hole, both of those are fun games and command better prices then games of a similar era.  So like I said it's all about supply and demand.  

Play them and you will understand the difference. DMD games by Gottlieb are just not as fun as Williams/Bally. Gottlieb did make at least one really decent game. I'm thinking Stargate and if you look at the price of the game, it's on par with B title Williams games. I find most "cheap" DMD games are cheap due to the game play -- and Gottlieb has a bunch of cheap DMD games.

Cheers,
Duane

Quoted from Vengeance

I just looked up on the IPDB every game made by Gottlieb/Premier from 1984 - 1996, not even one of those games is on my personal list of games I'd like to own.  Looking at the list I can't even see a single title where I think, yea that game was fun to play.  I personally have never found a Gottlieb/Premier game that is really all that fun to play.  

Actually their pre-DMD games aren't that bad and there are a few gems games. I do find the quality less than Williams and wouldn't pay the same dollar as a Sys. 11, for example. But games like Tag Team, Silver Slugger, and Title Fight are pretty fun. Again, not as good as Williams games of the same era -- hence they sell for less.

Duane

Hmmm! I guess I will have to try some of the machines and experience it for myself.  Hard to do since not many are buying early 90's Gottlieb!!!  As for the comment made about early 80's Gottlieb I fully agree, HH is quite good and my Volcano is also quite nice to play, I like it a lot.

However, it is still puzzling me a bit.  I guess I will dig a little deeper.  After all, the goal here is to play pinball isn't it.

tks

Gottlieb was run on a much tighter budget than Williams. Their mechanicals, playfield designs and programming were simpler than Williams. The themes were not all that great either for the most part. BUT... simpler does not mean necessarily bad. Actually, there are still A LOT of Gottliebs out on route today. Their electronics were fantastic when it came to System3 DMD pins.

Alas, today demand is dictated by the collector market, not the operator market. And being simpler in design hurts the demand on that front. I know an operator who stated to me that 60% of his pins on route were DMD Gottliebs. Apparently people in locations such as campgrounds and such (therefore not catering to a collector crowd) still pump a lot of money in them. And being simpler in design = less costly to maintain.

Quoted from gmaranda

However, it is still puzzling me a bit.  I guess I will dig a little deeper.  After all, the goal here is to play pinball isn't it.
tks

What's puzzling?  It's simple economics, more people like Willams/Bally games, there is a limited supply of those games and as such the supply available does not equal the demand of the market.  As a result a higher value is placed on the machines

Gottlieb/Premier games are not as popular and not as highly sought after.  As a result the existing supply of machines is meeting the demand of the consumer so they hold a lower value.

It's no different then anything else that is bought or sold.  

Quoted from Vengeance

Simple...


but if you go back further they have some better titles with things like Haunted House and Black Hole, both of those are fun games and command better prices then games of a similar era.  So like I said it's all about supply and demand.  

I just had a chance to play spirit last night ... now that is a really nice Gottlieb of the same vintage of BH and HH.

Quoted from Vengeance

What's puzzling?  It's simple economics, more people like Willams/Bally games, there is a limited supply of those games and as such the supply available does not equal the demand of the market.  As a result a higher value is placed on the machines

Gottlieb/Premier games are not as popular and not as highly sought after.  As a result the existing supply of machines is meeting the demand of the consumer so they hold a lower value.

It's no different then anything else that is bought or sold.  

A bit passionate aren't we?  Just so that we undestand each other I know very very very well about offer and demand. I was stating puzzling because I want to make an opinion for myself.  As many others it is a matter of opinions and now that others have shared theirs I will simply dig a bit deeper and find out for myself.

Being still fairly new I like to ask others then see if my opinion matches theirs.  Simply stating offer and demands does not increase my level of knowledge in this hobby.  However, why some titles are more sought after is helping me.  Things such as reliability, ease of finding parts......tidbits of info.

tks

Quoted from gmaranda

A bit passionate aren't we?  Just so that we undestand each other I know very very very well about offer and demand. I was stating puzzling because I want to make an opinion for myself.  As many others it is a matter of opinions and now that others have shared theirs I will simply dig a bit deeper and find out for myself.

Being still fairly new I like to ask others then see if my opinion matches theirs.  Simply stating offer and demands does not increase my level of knowledge in this hobby.  However, why some titles are more sought after is helping me.  Things such as reliability, ease of finding parts......tidbits of info.

tks

Well yea, that's completely different, why games differ so much in value is an easy thing to figure out, what games you like is of course a personal thing and something you will have to figure out on your own.  

I personally don't enjoy the Premier/Gottlieb games as I find them very clunky and cheap feeling.  I find the rules very uninspired and the theme integration has never really been done very well.  I've also always found that whatever sound system the use is pretty chessy.  I'm not sure how hard or easy it is to find parts or repair them as I've never owned one.  

The best thing to do is go to local league nights and try as many machines as you can. Then form your own opinion on what you like.

Most machines are servicable to some extent, but they tend to reproduce plastics and ramps and other game specific parts for higher value machines because people that invest their cash in them are willing to spend on the parts relative to the value of the games.

Nobody will buy $500 in ramps for a $1000.00 game.

Quoted from wbradley

The best thing to do is go to local league nights and try as many machines as you can. Then form your own opinion on what you like.

Most machines are servicable to some extent, but they tend to reproduce plastics and ramps and other game specific parts for higher value machines because people that invest their cash in them are willing to spend on the parts relative to the value of the games.

Nobody will buy $500 in ramps for a $1000.00 game.

Good advice, this is what I have been doing but the problem is that there is so many machines and so little time.....  I guess this is why I got into the hobby.  Besides, there has to be some people that don't mind early 90's Gottlieb (anyone?  Bueller, Bueller)

tks for sharing

Have to agree with Adam. I don't see what is puzzling with the variance in price at all. Mid 80s to 90s Gottlieb games, generally, just aren't in the same league as Williams/Bally and are priced accordingly.

Duane

Quoted Text

so many machines and so little time.....    

or, to quote TSPP' "So many buttons, so few brain cells".

Quoted from gmaranda

Good advice, this is what I have been doing but the problem is that there is so many machines and so little time.

Just go here one year:

http://www.papa.org

Free to the public every game on .50 cent play.  400+ machines in one location, more machines then most shows have in their free play area.  You'll get a chance to play every game you've ever wanted to in one weekend.  

Quoted from TwilightZone

Have to agree with Adam. I don't see what is puzzling with the variance in price at all. Mid 80s to 90s Gottlieb games, generally, just aren't in the same league as Williams/Bally and are priced accordingly.

Duane

Ok guys give it up with the word "puzzling" I was refering to why there is a price difference.  I want to know the why based on your experience not based on simply "because".  Sparky gave a good explanation and Vengeance last post was pretty good about sound etc.

That is the kind of relevant info I was looking for not that I am puzzled about offer and demand.  I want to know why early 90's Gottlieb don't make you tick.  Or tickle your fancy.  

Throw me a freakin bone here guys

Quoted from gmaranda

That is the kind of relevant info I was looking for not that I am puzzled about offer and demand.  I want to know why early 90's Gottlieb don't make you tick.  Or tickle your fancy.  

Throw me a freakin bone here guys

I think it's just a language barrier thing

You said "However, it is still puzzling me a bit."

Which us Anglo's took as You were still confused as to why Gottlieb's cost much less then Williams/Bally, hence our response.    

Quoted from Vengeance

I think it's just a language barrier thing

You said "However, it is still puzzling me a bit."

Which us Anglo's took as You were still confused as to why Gottlieb's cost much less then Williams/Bally, hence our response.    

I type with an accent or you read with one........

Another indication of value is build quality. Just on the playfield, Williams went with Diamondplate, based on an automotive clear. Gottlieb went with an old-school clear lacquer right up until the end. So that is another factor. Many GTBs have some extensive wear. Williams resist better with time.

This said, they are not BAD machines at all. I consider them to be "casual player" type machines.

The Gottleib era ended with SS machines, and Williams/Bally took over.  Proof is clear here:

http://www.ipdb.org/lists.cgi?puid=24610&browser=1282590867&list=top300


HH and BH are more pretty than they are "players" in my opinion.  Silver Slugger is a rare gem in the Gottleib SS's.

Agree with Silver Slugger.  Fun game.  Most other Gtb's really do royally suck and are more suitable for folks who know nothing about pinball and just want one so they can flail at the ball aimlessly.  Once you start to understand the nuances of a nice ruleset then you'll start to dislike Gtb.  And the sound really is cheesy..

My $0.02

Mike

Think about cars...

Which one is more sought after: Renault Fuego or a Porsche 924?

A car enthusiast might go for a Fuego due to its rarity, but a sportscar enthusiast would go for the 924. pricewise, I would think the Fuego would be cheaper.

Well, that, is about the difference between the Gottlieb and WMS DMD-era machines.

WMS had great titles, good software, neat toys and the 'fun' factor is almost way up there'. On the GTB-side, well...they're built solid, but the fun factor, toys and titles aren't in the same ballpark as wms.

2 similar titles: Indy500 and Mario Andretti...play both and you'll mostlikely stop playing Mario after one ball.

IMHO, Some GTB games are ok...for a few games whereas a WMS have some games that you'll enjoy for YEARS.

Then again, we're lucky to live in a land where there are hundreds of pinball titles available and YOU can pick and choose which one YOU like.

Supply and demand is important if you're looking to buy, but then try to sell the machine. Don't get me wrong, you should look at pinballs like a HOBBY and not an INVESTMENT (many members here could give you great stories about this statement).

It doesn't matter what others think...buy what YOU like and YOU want. However, bear in mind that even in the pinball world, there are some "Yugos", "Skodas" and "Ladas"... their resale value is rock bottom and the 'fun' factor will last a gas tank.

mes deux cennes,

frosken

That's it, that's it... keep talking down those Gottliebs, those terrible System 3's (that I love so much....) they should come down even more in price for sure!  (tongue-in-cheek)

Gottlieb had less success with their individual themes and licenses I believe, and as Adam will point out, their rule sets weren't always as challenging.  Essentially Gottlieb was competing both with Willams/Bally/Data East and improving complexity of all the innovations they were introducing, and they were fighting operators disdain for pinball machines that required a lot of servicing (as opposed to video games).

So they started making games more reliable, and less gimmicky (and trying to get them to market faster).  At the same time they tried to make pinball machines more exciting for non-competitive players, making large wins easier to acheive. The end result was that Williams/Bally/Data East had more appealing product, particular now in hindsight.

There are gems though. Stargate and Wipe Out! come to mind.

Gottlieb/Premier also had a much lower development budget in the 90's due to years of losing market share right from the first few years of SS machines. They really didnt have their corporate heart into the changover to SS from the late 70's while companies like Bally embraced it and just ran with it. So, as years passed they had less and less to work with.

GTB was in their heyday and market leaders until '77 and their competitors switching to the novel SS designs.

The earlier Sys 1 were more reliable on route, but are a  pain now when they have well exceeded their service life.  Sys 80 and SYS1 were considered trouble prone by operators when new. Sys 3 were reliable, but lacking design in many cases. A perfect example of how GTB fell behind is how in the late 70's to early 80's their sounds were boops and beeps when WMS had games like Gorgar including speech, and Bally had great licensed games like Kiss with musical sounds.

So the fact that Premier GTB even survived to the mid nineties was probably more due to the assets available from being aquired by Columbia pictures in the late 70's, and then again in the 80's by another corporate entity. Anyone can make the odd success, but they were consistently sucking the hind teat, so to speak.

Bally also fell behind heading into the late 80's and were also cash strapped. But they had strong video games assets (Midway) as well as a brand known for great earlier SS titles before their quality declined. So, WMS made the right move and just bought them out so they could fill a bigger chunk of market demand and eliminate competition. THAT is where the pinball development money was in the early 90's.

Kudos to Gary Stern/Joe Kaminkow as the small guys keeping the ball rolling, so to speak, right until now.

Quoted from frosken

Think about cars...

Which one is more sought after: Renault Fuego or a Porsche 924?

A car enthusiast might go for a Fuego due to its rarity, but a sportscar enthusiast would go for the 924. pricewise, I would think the Fuego would be cheaper.

Well, that, is about the difference between the Gottlieb and WMS DMD-era machines.

WMS had great titles, good software, neat toys and the 'fun' factor is almost way up there'. On the GTB-side, well...they're built solid, but the fun factor, toys and titles aren't in the same ballpark as wms.

2 similar titles: Indy500 and Mario Andretti...play both and you'll mostlikely stop playing Mario after one ball.

IMHO, Some GTB games are ok...for a few games whereas a WMS have some games that you'll enjoy for YEARS.

Then again, we're lucky to live in a land where there are hundreds of pinball titles available and YOU can pick and choose which one YOU like.

Supply and demand is important if you're looking to buy, but then try to sell the machine. Don't get me wrong, you should look at pinballs like a HOBBY and not an INVESTMENT (many members here could give you great stories about this statement).

It doesn't matter what others think...buy what YOU like and YOU want. However, bear in mind that even in the pinball world, there are some "Yugos", "Skodas" and "Ladas"... their resale value is rock bottom and the 'fun' factor will last a gas tank.

mes deux cennes,

frosken

tks for sharing but don't go for the Renault Fuego it was my first car in the 80's...........worst car ever.  You had to bring back painful memories

Quoted from gmaranda

tks for sharing but don't go for the Renault Fuego it was my first car in the 80's...........worst car ever.  You had to bring back painful memories

So...

French engineering = Gottlieb
German engineering = WMS/Bally

That French/German comparison doesnt exactly work here.

One thing about these Gottlieb/Premier machines is they're reliable tanks. Very little goes wrong with them, so you cant compare the engineering that way. They're a little different to work on but laid out pretty easy to find. If anything Gottliebs are the German engineering.

Stan

Quoted from Pinballed

That French/German comparison doesnt exactly work here.

How about this:

Gottlieb = Toyota
Williams/Bally = Ferrari

No one would argue a Toyota is less expensive to maintain and more reliable than a Ferrari, but....which is more fun to drive?  

Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

How about this:

Gottlieb = Toyota
Williams/Bally = Ferrari

No one would argue a Toyota is less expensive to maintain and more reliable than a Ferrari, but....which is more fun to drive?  

Duane

When the accelerator sticks, the Toyotas become real fun!

Quoted from TwilightZone

How about this:

Gottlieb = Toyota
Williams/Bally = Ferrari

No one would argue a Toyota is less expensive to maintain and more reliable than a Ferrari, but....which is more fun to drive?  

Duane

Whoa there cowboy.... Ferrari my a**... they are great... but not THAT great. Take it from an engineer. And also, some late Williams machines are not THAT fantastic.

I think part of the problem with Gottlieb's is that for the longest time they had such a small design, art and programming team (sorta like Stern right about now).  

Williams had all the top guys because they could pay them.  In an interview with Python Angelo, he said Williams was paying him over $100k per year at one point (in the 80's).

Quoted from machine.slave

I think part of the problem with Gottlieb's is that for the longest time they had such a small design, art and programming team (sorta like Stern right about now).

Except Stern has the benefit of being able to use music directly from movies and photoshop game artwork, including DMD animations.

Quoted from jonny_eh

Except Stern has the benefit of being able to use music directly from movies and photoshop game artwork, including DMD animations.

Which is great to a point -- it lowers their production costs.. but I think DMD animations of movie clips look like crap.  Same with Photochopped playfield art.  Bring back the real DMD animations and artwork.. created by, you know, ARTISTS!

Quoted Text

but I think DMD animations of movie clips look like crap.

Agreed! It is OK to a point, but not when that's all they do. That's why I really like the DMD animation on TSPP...is is actually animation.

Meh, I'm too busy looking at the ball to care about DMD animations, as long as they can be skipped I'm happy.

Quoted from jonny_eh

I'm too busy looking at the ball to care about DMD animations

I love it when people say this, it makes me laugh..  

You don't care about the DMD animations because they don't mean anything anymore.. at this point, why bother even putting them in games?  If all they're there for is to show you the scores, then just go back to alpha-numeric and be done with it.

The DMD animation on Spiderman, for example, what the (bleep) is that all about, you can't even tell what is supposed to be happening.

The Iron man ones are pretty good, the only ones that look terrible at the whiplash ones, although the starting sequence for the multiball is pretty good.  

There was a time that a lot of machines had DMD animation that added a lot to the entertainment value. There has been a definite decline in that over the last several years. It seems that Stern has found a low cost way to fill in the DMD void without eliminating it.

By the way I always thought WMS had a patent on video modes on DMD, but I have 2 DE machines, Tommy and GnR that have proven otherwise. Again, another feature eliminated. No biggie, but it still was added content.

Quoted from machine.slave

I love it when people say this, it makes me laugh..  

You don't care about the DMD animations because they don't mean anything anymore.. at this point, why bother even putting them in games?  If all they're there for is to show you the scores, then just go back to alpha-numeric and be done with it.

I do own a Sys 11. It's just as fun to play with or without a DMD. If Stern's next game didn't have a DMD, I'd still play it. I didn't by my SM to watch the DMD animations, and I bet no one else did either. And yet, it's still regarded as one of the best pins ever.

If the DMD really mattered, they would have upgraded it by now, but it just isn't worth the investment since people don't play pinball to see cool animations anymore.

If anything, the crappy low res 4 shades of one colour DMDs they're using now makes their games look really dated. Either they should scrap them or replace them with something newer.

Quoted Text

the crappy low res 4 shades of one colour DMDs they're using now makes their games look really dated  

Actually the newer Sterns use more than 4 shades (11, I think), which is part f the reason they able to play movie snippets.

Just out of curiosity Jon, have you played TSPP much? If so, do you think the DMD animations add much to the experience on that machine? Also, Family Guy, Shrek and several others.

With a few exceptions, I think WMS 90's DMD animation is WAY more entertaining than the latest Sterns. I really like tne flow od SM, but not the animation. And, for me it is the WHOLE package.

Quoted from wbradley

Actually the newer Sterns use more than 4 shades (11, I think), which is part f the reason they able to play movie snippets.

Just out of curiosity Jon, have you played TSPP much? If so, do you think the DMD animations add much to the experience on that machine? Also, Family Guy, Shrek and several others.

With a few exceptions, I think WMS 90's DMD animation is WAY more entertaining than the latest Sterns. I really like tne flow od SM, but not the animation. And, for me it is the WHOLE package.

Yes, I agree that the Stern movie clip animations suck, yet the games are still fun to play. Amazing! If I want cool graphics I'll turn on my 360.

I like original stuff on the DMDs like on TZ, JD, LOTR, FG, MM etc. It is entertaining when you are watching. The movie ports just don't do it for me since the resolution suxs.  Original stuff would make it so much better and unique then copying if from the movie.  I know it's for cost cutting but it still is a 5k machine.

My .02

Lance

Quoted Text

If I want cool graphics I'll turn on my 360.

Its more about giving the machine more of a personality/humour. Im not looking for HD graphics, that would detract from gameplay.

This past weekend some video artists and I shot some post apocolyptic videos and made them dot matrix-y, and they looked  better than some of the direct clips on some of the newer sterns. It was pretty cool, we played it behind my band as we played on saturday and Sunday. Were getting together next week to put together a website for the Ottawa pinball show and were using it as the title bar, as well as projecting some at the show. I'll post it here when i have the files for myself.

Quoted from MadTitan

This past weekend some video artists and I shot some post apocolyptic videos and made them dot matrix-y, and they looked  better than some of the direct clips on some of the newer sterns. It was pretty cool, we played it behind my band as we played on saturday and Sunday. Were getting together next week to put together a website for the Ottawa pinball show and were using it as the title bar, as well as projecting some at the show. I'll post it here when i have the files for myself.

Sounds cool, can't wait to see it!