Wow, interesting to say the least, wonder what changes that will bring about in new machines?

I heard BBH has been delayed in favor of rerunning machines.  I hope this will be a good thing for Stern and bring about some necessary changes.

Private Equity Firms from my experience believe in only one thing: the bottom line!!  I would have been more excited to see someone that has a passion for pinball be the new investor, instead of a private equity firm. Hopefully this is good news.

Hopefully not more cost cutting measures.  Maybe bring back some of the talent that made the various A list Stern's.

Great news for pinball, no matter how you slice it!

Quoted from HP5P

Private Equity Firms from my experience believe in only one thing: the bottom line!!  I would have been more excited to see someone that has a passion for pinball be the new investor, instead of a private equity firm. Hopefully this is good news.

Generally I would hold the same concern but after having been to the factory and looking at the business I can't see much of a downside ....

Stern is in trouble and needs new ideas as well as capital there is no expensive new machinery for a raider to sell off and GS is still in charge of the company.

I'm not saying that this ensures Stern's existance in anyway but I don't think the path they were on was a good one so hopefully this gives the company a much better chance to survive

This is fantabulous!

People don't usually invest in order to lose money. Considering that in 2009 over 100 American banks went bankrupt, banks and investment firms have become extremely conservative. Given that, this company obviously believes that there is money to be made and the resurgence is on its' way. I see this as good news.

Now Stern should take on the philosophy that many companies have for their products such as offer a premium product - say LOTR for $5-6K and then make a slightly more down to earth pin for $3k., more of an entry level pin to get people interested. Even BMW has range in products from $30k - >$140K. This can only attract a larger market.

Quoted from Ricker

Now Stern should take on the philosophy that many companies have for their products such as offer a premium product - say LOTR for $5-6K and then make a slightly more down to earth pin for $3k., more of an entry level pin to get people interested. Even BMW has range in products from $30k - >$140K. This can only attract a larger market.

Didn't Bally try this ages ago with "home" versions of the coin-op stuff?  (and to my knowledge the "home" versions were crap)  Stick to making the games the way they are, that way they don't have to worry about managing 2 types of systems.

D

MAybe it will be like when Gottlieb became a division of Columbia. (some of the shittiest SS's of all time)

Hope not!

I saw the stern videos the other day, and today i check my email, and "SternPinballInc" sent me a friend invite, weird, must have seen my game videos, or something like that

hopefully this is all good news and more pinballs will keep being produced

Eric

I'm hoping they come up with a platform that would make swapping games cheaper and easier. Something like pin2k. Both ops and home users would appreciate it.

Quoted from jonny_eh

I'm hoping they come up with a platform that would make swapping games cheaper and easier. Something like pin2k. Both ops and home users would appreciate it.

Maybe as a long term project but I can't see that kind of inovation coming any time soon from Stern ... but way off in the future it would be a good thing to see.

It would be neat to see more "Lost Vegas" type games.  Shallower rule sets, but still commercial parts & aesthetics.   Artwork, cabinet, backglass, single-level playfield... $2000???   Dreaming     Don't invest in a new hardware platform, but team up like CPR has with Altec, etc...

If they could team up with and make some simple games for a lower price that would be attractive as Ricker said.

Quoted from machine.slave

Great news for pinball, no matter how you slice it!

Maybe not. Maybe a pinball company happens to be set up to produce a more profitable product. I can only think back to Williams reason to close their flipper division to see how this particular business works.

Funny how Gary who didn't give a damn about the home user is changing his tune in the face of potential closure. There is no way in hell re-runs of older titles that were of interest to collectors would put aside new more commercially relevant products. How many ops would be jumping on the LOTR bandwagon, and in particular one with an increased bottom line for a few additions. Stern knows who they are building these for. No casual player would even notice of any upgrades. Do you think it would bring in one extra thin dime to the operators having a real backglass? Not only is it more unjustified money to an op but they would be deeply concerned about the theme being dated. These machines are being produced for Sterns one only remaining market that is currently viable, collectors.

It's my experience that private equity firms either "make" family businesses, or "break" them (interested only in selling off their assets).  SO we'll see, it takes about 2 years for the net effect to become evident.

And if home owners are their market, they need to sell a platform. It worked for Nintendo, it can work for Stern (on a smaller scale of course). You buy the expensive common components once (or twice, or if you're 'pins only' 4 times), and it would include legs, cabinet, plunger, electronics, and backbox with 27" LCD. All you have to buy from then on is a playfield and download the ROMs to a USB stick. The playfields would have a much smaller barrier to entry for consumers from then on, and they'd sell a lot more units. They could even sell alternate cabinet decals for extra profit.

Yes, it would take some initial up front investment, but that's what this new guy's for.

If I were them, I'd then try to license some of the popular WMS games and release those. But now I'm just getting silly!

Quoted from websherpa

It's my experience that private equity firms either "make" family businesses, or "break" them (interested only in selling off their assets).  SO we'll see, it takes about 2 years for the net effect to become evident.

Who would buy Stern's assets? There are no other pinball companies. All that would remain is rights to make repro parts, and that's probably not worth much, especially since most of the games are licensed. Anyone that got rights to repro LOTR parts, for example, would need to get a license from New Line Pictures too. Yuck.

Quoted from Menace

Didn't Bally try this ages ago with "home" versions of the coin-op stuff?  (and to my knowledge the "home" versions were crap)  Stick to making the games the way they are, that way they don't have to worry about managing 2 types of systems.

D

Well, I don't think Ricker is saying make a Sears / Costco version that feels cheap, just one that doesn't have $1,000 worth of ramps & toys.   Bring back a simple game that still is commercial grade.   I doubt I'd buy one anyway, but I'm feeding into the point of view that some games are just too ocmplex for simple minded people like me.   (  OK, I'm trying to justify why I sold TZ      )

Quoted from necro_nemesis

These machines are being produced for Sterns one only remaining market that is currently viable, collectors.

Well that would make perfect sense, since it's the collector community who begged him to do it in the first place  

I'd be willing to bet we'll see quite a few more movie and TV themed pins now.. I mean, there will be teams of people who only care about money convincing Hollywood producers it's a great idea by speaking their language.  

Don't get me wrong, I'm very thankful for Gary keeping the industry alive, but something tells me he's not the best PR man to sell the product and pitch the ideas.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Maybe not. Maybe a pinball company happens to be set up to produce a more profitable product. I can only think back to Williams reason to close their flipper division to see how this particular business works.

Funny how Gary who didn't give a damn about the home user is changing his tune in the face of potential closure. There is no way in hell re-runs of older titles that were of interest to collectors would put aside new more commercially relevant products. How many ops would be jumping on the LOTR bandwagon, and in particular one with an increased bottom line for a few additions. Stern knows who they are building these for. No casual player would even notice of any upgrades. Do you think it would bring in one extra thin dime to the operators having a real backglass? Not only is it more unjustified money to an op but they would be deeply concerned about the theme being dated. These machines are being produced for Sterns one only remaining market that is currently viable, collectors.

Agree 100%.

The investing team seems focused on marketing, so that's a good thing. I cann't believe how backwards Stern has been. No videos? That's just dumb. Free exposure on youtube and they couldn't be bothered to make a simple video. That was a no brainer for the marketing guy. Let's see what he does with the videos behind him. Let's see some more marketing....

There is Facebook and twitter. Start opening up communication with the market. How about adding a blog. What about actually announcing what is coming down the pipeline? I mean officially rather than through the grapevine.

And like Necro said, they need to stop insulting the home market and design games for us. Like the Ltd releases they have done as of late, I'd like to see versions of the games with extra clear coat, real backglass, etc.

I'd have to disagree with Doug on dumbing down the game, though. I think they got it right with Spiderman and Family Guy/Shrek. Easy rules to understand, but complexity for the experts.

Will be interesting to see what the future holds.

Duane

Quoted from Tuborg

(  OK, I'm trying to justify why I sold TZ      )

Now you are making sense.

Think of the marketing for the fancy pin like a Batman and bring in the more simple maybe nostalgic pin, single level like a classic Stern. Look at Cooke's video and that game looks fun to play and we keep trading or selling games like that all of the time, more so than the uber high end pins. Our classified section proves that. It does not mean that they are not desired, just sometimes not affordable that's all. And what a nice tie in it could be if today's Stern could release the classic Sterns.

He does reruns all of the time...

the fact that Gary remains as CEO is bad but the rest is great news!

Quoted from jonny_eh

You buy the expensive common components once (or twice, or if you're 'pins only' 4 times),

  

Dave (That was funny!)

Code Code Code Code!! I will not buy another new Stern that isn't finished, or close enough that I am happy with it. I really would like a Batman, (or The Dark Knight, I guess it is called) and an IJ4, But unless I see a real update come out, not be rumored again and again, but actually released, I will not buy them.

Finish the Games you have out there and then go from there. If I was a serious Operator and was looking at putting out some new games, I would like to know that I could get a real good dollar back for my routed game. The collector will know the short comings of these games with unfinished code and the resale value is minimized.

Dave

But Dave, do you think the location players care whether it's a new Stern game?  They wouldn't know the difference between a Stern Dark Knight versus Fish Tales.  Doesn't seem to make sense to spend 4-6k on a new Stern if it doesn't significantly out earns a 1.5k pin.  

I like the idea of swappable playfield designs and accompanying software. Then, I could justify the $5K initial outlay with the prospect of swapping playfields later

Also, If they made the platform without the playfield available for sale so one could buy their buddy's playfield/software and have it plug and play.

Big collectors can still buy the whole unit, and little guys can have one or a few platformns and buy/sell/trade playfield packages. There is virtually no technology shift needed to do this and it could get Stern into thje homes of people who might have 5 or 10K invested in theire pinball, versus $50K.

And now,  the operator doesnt need to retire machines that should be viable.

I guess it would be up to the MBA types to decide if this would be a more profitable route or just reinventing the wheel.

Quoted from pinsRfun

But Dave, do you think the location players care whether it's a new Stern game?  They wouldn't know the difference between a Stern Dark Knight versus Fish Tales.  Doesn't seem to make sense to spend 4-6k on a new Stern if it doesn't significantly out earns a 1.5k pin.  

Yes and No, I think we under estimate the Location player. I know the guys who play my No Fear in the Pool Hall know Exactly what they are doing. There is lots of info about Pinball available with web sites for rule sheets etc. Even the manuals have shot maps in them, well the old Bally/Williams DMD games do, and Posters were made etc.

Do they care if it is a New Stern or a Fish Tales (type game)? I seriously doubt it, as long as it plays well. If there is a choice in the same location, then they will gravitate to one game or the other, regardless of who made it. This has always been the case in the one location I have. If an Op wanted to use Pinballs, he will want something new and exciting. Colorful, good theme etc. Knowing there is a market for it after the fact is a Huge plus!! New Stern $5Kish use for a while and if it is say... Spider-Man (a specific example for someone ) keep it nice and get $3500 to $4500 for it, that makes it a lot more reasonable to operate. Would a Good looking and good playing Willians do as well? I don't see why not, as long as it is new to the location. The other factor is maintenance, the theory is, a New game is Hassle free, an old game is... Not. Is this true, No, but the illusion is there.

Dave

Quoted from Ricker

Think of the marketing for the fancy pin like a Batman and bring in the more simple maybe nostalgic pin, single level like a classic Stern. Look at Cooke's video and that game looks fun to play and we keep trading or selling games like that all of the time, more so than the uber high end pins.

A classic pin will not work. End of story. Capcom tried it with Breakshot and that game didn't do gang busters. Do you really think enough folks will fork over $3K ($2K isn't realistic given the volume of sales, even $3K isn't likely) for a "classic" style game when they can buy a used one for $500 to $600??? And how many folks will fork over the cash? Enough to sustain a business? Not likely. And kids (the important component) will not play a classic game...not enough toys to interest them.

Another important point to consider, I recall Gary once saying the cost of a pinball was in the design, not the manufacture. The lion share of the cost is developing the game. If this is the case, I really don't see a HUGE savings from going to classic style.

My .02.

Duane

Quoted from jonny_eh

And if home owners are their market, they need to sell a platform. It worked for Nintendo, it can work for Stern (on a smaller scale of course).

Smaller scale??? Not comparable by a long shot. Wii sales were close to 50 million as of January 29. In November alone, they sold half a million units in the US alone! Pinball cann't compete with those numbers.

And the economic reality is totally different. The big money, for Nintendo, comes from licensing. Every single game that is made for the Wii contributes to Nintendo's bottom line regardless if they made it or not.

I don't see a pinball platform being realistic. There just isn't enough volume.

Duane

Article makes some assumptions and paints a picture as to where the players went. I suggest if the assumptions are true they went home (or are 40 year old squeegee kids). If you don't know within the first five seconds who his new friend is your in trouble.

http://cheeptalk.wordpress.com/2009/11/17/the-economics-of-pinball/

I don't know what proportion of operators maintain their pins though.  Look at Southern Music.  It's horrid.  Look at the pinbot you got from the GreyHound location.  Granted, almost the same as Southern Music.  Give them a new Stern and it isn't gonna be worth 3500-4500 afterwards unless someone puts in some serious work on them.  I think for the most part, it is a whole less risky to buy an older pin for location and get more value out of that and then also flip it at the end.

Quoted from TwilightZone

Another important point to consider, I recall Gary once saying the cost of a pinball was in the design, not the manufacture. The lion share of the cost is developing the game. If this is the case, I really don't see a HUGE savings from going to classic style.

Continuing on this note, previous threads discussed the possibility of Stern going to a "kit" style format where you purchase a shell with the boards and display etc and then buy the PF's separately.  This is all fine and good, but if you think these PF kits will be cheap think again.  

As Duane stated the bulk of the game cost is design / programming, couple that with all the material and labour required to make a PF (I would hazard a guess that an assembled PF is currently 80%+ of the total game cost to make) and it adds up really quick.

Based on what WMS was selling the SWep1 kits for back in the day my bet is you'd still be looking at spending 3K+ US for any sort of PF kit if available.

Doug

Beats 5K + for sure. And at least this way cabs with beat playfields could be used versus buying all the physical parts every time when not needed. I like the idea of having that option.

Quoted from Menace

Continuing on this note, previous threads discussed the possibility of Stern going to a "kit" style format where you purchase a shell with the boards and display etc and then buy the PF's separately.  This is all fine and good, but if you think these PF kits will be cheap think again.  

As Duane stated the bulk of the game cost is design / programming, couple that with all the material and labour required to make a PF (I would hazard a guess that an assembled PF is currently 80%+ of the total game cost to make) and it adds up really quick.

Based on what WMS was selling the SWep1 kits for back in the day my bet is you'd still be looking at spending 3K+ US for any sort of PF kit if available.

Doug

Similar to what the nucore guys said at EXPO ... they asked who would pay $10K for a new game (Wizard Blocks) .. not many bites ... who would pay 5-6K for a kit lots of folks. Basically putting a price on the kits that they thought was doable .. so I don't see 1K-2K kits being plausible.

As for a home player with limited spaces, kits are a great idea.  Pin2k really did a good job of allowing for quick swaps.  Heck, I don't even care about the cabinet art.  Give me a playfield and translite and away I go.  If Wizard Blocks does ever become reality, it definitely won't be cheap just due to the low volumes.  I would love to see 2-3k units of Wizard Blocks but I'm guessing more like a few hundred.

Sam

I think $3k for a kit is reasonable.. I'd rather pay that than $5k+ for a whole new machine

I also think a kitted option would open up their home-use market, as not everyone has room for more than one machine

Quoted from machine.slave

I think $3k for a kit is reasonable.. I'd rather pay that than $5k+ for a whole new machine

I also think a kitted option would open up their home-use market, as not everyone has room for more than one machine

and that makes sense for the Sterns of today and such (but if Wizard Blocks gets made it'll be $5K+ for the kit)

Quoted from SquidVicious

(but if Wizard Blocks gets made it'll be $5K+ for the kit)

WHERE DO I SIGN???!!!!

D

Quoted from SquidVicious

and that makes sense for the Sterns of today and such (but if Wizard Blocks gets made it'll be $5K+ for the kit)

Wizard Blocks is different. P2K games require much more expensive development due to the full colour animated effects, much more complex than a DMD. Also, there are only a limited number of surviving Pin2k systems that a WB kit could be sold for. In other words, the market is limited.

If Stern did their own kits, with their own system, they could produce as many as the market would bear, and not be limited to the number of existing systems already out there.

Quoted from jonny_eh

Wizard Blocks is different. P2K games require much more expensive development due to the full colour animated effects, much more complex than a DMD. Also, there are only a limited number of surviving Pin2k systems that a WB kit could be sold for. In other words, the market is limited.

If Stern did their own kits, with their own system, they could produce as many as the market would bear, and not be limited to the number of existing systems already out there.

Right but their system isn't designed to do what you are stating so they would have to re-engineer it at at least a fairly hefty price tag and with the current market that makes little sense (plus you would have to incorperate (at least initially) some of the extra costs into the kit costs)

Quoted from SquidVicious

Right but their system isn't designed to do what you are stating so they would have to re-engineer it at at least a fairly hefty price tag and with the current market that makes little sense (plus you would have to incorperate (at least initially) some of the extra costs into the kit costs)

It's not really that much of a stretch when you think about it.  

As long as the board set is the same for each version, say TDK and WOF.  I don't see any reason you couldn't just unplug all the existing connectors, and swap PF's between those two machines.  We've see that multipile version of software can work on exist boards ala FG/Shrek.  So take a WOF PF and drop it in a TDK and change the software and boom your done.  

So all they would have to do is add molex connectors into the existing harness to make it easier to remove the PF and then maye those soem kind of rails that P2K had on the bottom of the PF to make it easier to take a PF in and out of a cabinet.  

Doesn't seem that far of a stretch to me.  

I think that technologically it would be quite inexpensive to develop this system.

Requirements: Stern Pinball cabinet with complete S.A.M. or maybe even Whitestar board system.

Product development costs: Playfield design, Software development.

Cost to develop each new design?? Probably not much lower development cost per new system than any new machine, except  possibly maybe for cab art or translight.

Market: With the option of buying complete OR kit, bigger in the short term. Longterm depends on how much they think it will take away  from complete machine sales which is higher ticket, so probably higher profit per unit if margins are equal.

Quoted from machine.slave

I think $3k for a kit is reasonable.. I'd rather pay that than $5k+ for a whole new machine.

Agreed. Even $3K is hard to swallow since you lose what ever machine you had to make a conversion from. The math for me is losing the ability to flip RFM on + $3K = Wizard Blocks. Not worth it.

$3K can buy you a pretty nice machine and $5K a really nice machine.

Here is the impossible math to grasp. RFM + Nucore Conversion + Wizard Blocks at $5K is more than a Medieval Madness.

You only lose RFM for a little bit though, you at least still own it. It's not like you have to sell it and never see it again. That has value, lots of value.

Quoted from jonny_eh

You only lose RFM for a little bit though, you at least still own it. It's not like you have to sell it and never see it again. That has value, lots of value.

I just like to flip on the switch and play my machines. I gave up on Mechano as a form of entertainment 40 years ago.

If space isn't an issue, you could try the full game instead of kits.  But WB at 5k is hard to swallow.  Pat Lawlor has always said that Wizard Blocks isn't remotely close to being finished whereas IPB has said the opposite.  I think I would believe PL on this one.

Quoted from pinsRfun

If space isn't an issue, you could try the full game instead of kits.  But WB at 5k is hard to swallow.  Pat Lawlor has always said that Wizard Blocks isn't remotely close to being finished whereas IPB has said the opposite.  I think I would believe PL on this one.

I think PL is a pessimist and should get beaten with a sack of oranges.

I would say the game is probably somewhere in between the two states of completeness, but will take a major effort to complete but not impossible.  All I can say is the WB discussions have kicked up a notch now that NuCore is out.

D