I've met this guy in person, and I've seen IJ, there is heavy fade on this one as well as the standard lock bar issues. Nice game with potential if you wanna spend the money.

I recall he also had some extra parts for it too. He's a super nice guy and would be very easy to work with.

Just curious. There was a time when I would have considered this a very good trade. Can't say I feel the same way about it now. Not that the games have changed from what they were over the years. I just seemed to have grown a liking to Gn'R for variety in the collection.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Just curious. There was a time when I would have considered this a very good trade. Can't say I feel the same way about it now. Not that the games have changed from what they were over the years. I just seemed to have grown a liking to Gn'R for variety in the collection.

That and apparently GnR is worth about $1300 more than IJ  

Quoted from machine.slave

That and apparently GnR is worth about $1300 more than IJ  

Pfffft.

While GNR is one of the best music themed games (probably next to Elvis), I still think IJ is one of the best integrations of a theme for a game.  The sound bites, the music and everything captures the whole Indiana Jones theme very well.  Just compare it to the Stern IJ....it just doesn't have the same excitement.  The only other game that comes close to capturing a licensed theme, in the 90s, would be Twilight Zone.

TAF has excellent integration as well. If you watch the movie after knowing the game, I can't think of anything off hand that isn't relevant in the game. In fact with the cast voices it may even be more true to the movie than TZ is to the show. TZ had someone doing the voice of Rod Serling for obvious reason. The voice does seem rather convincing though.

The biggest difference between Gn'R and IJ is availability. Either is available but IJ seems more readily available and therefore finding a very decent one a little easier.

I didn't include TAF because it integrated a single movie, not the original TV series.  IJ includes the first 3 movies.  TZ included many original episodes and not the movie remake.  While TAF was well done, it might have been more interesting with original TV series integration (along with The Flintstones)?  I was considering the whole franchise and not a single commercial tie-in.

I guess it all depends what people personally associate with the theme.  

I always thought the GNR game partially suffered from having references to the Axl 'I want to be Elton John' Rose era of the Use Your Illusion tours.  The whole Dizzy aspect just cheapens it.  If it was made with just the 1987 era... it would have captured the original essence of GNR to me.  

Yeah, 1987 with Steven Alder on drums, Dizzy was in the band for what, 10 minutes.... ha, ha.

I've played both and while I like IJ ( the WPC game is way better playing game to me than the newer Stern IJ ) GNR is a hard one to replace right now.

I found Raul Julia and Christopher Lloyd far more entertaining than the original actors from the TV series. Those two made that movie IMHO. Unlike Rosie O'Donnel vs the original Betty Rubble. Flintstone would have been better if it had been true to the cartoon and far better without Rosie.

Quoted from Monkeybug

I still think IJ is one of the best integrations of a theme for a game.  The sound bites, the music and everything captures the whole Indiana Jones theme very well.

yeah ... except the gameplay SUCKS DONKEYS BUTT

Quoted from Mrhide

yeah ... except the gameplay SUCKS DONKEYS BUTT

and I was just about to trade!!! ................... NOT!!

Is it me or the music on Indiana jones is repetitive?GNR have much more better music and it's real solid rock  

Quoted from Bally Boy

Yeah, 1987 with Steven Alder on drums, Dizzy was in the band for what, 10 minutes.... ha, ha

Dizzy is still in the band and tours with GnR.

Duane

Quoted from Mrhide

yeah ... except the gameplay SUCKS DONKEYS BUTT

I really like IJ for the modes etc. The BIG negative is the short shots. The top half of the pf is a waste of space for the player IMHO. Sure throw in some jet bumpers to randomize the ball but not at the expense of eating up all the decent long shots. The long shots are into guides and ramps so really they aren't long shots, they're short shots to something that then guides the ball. Anytime I played it I find I am just trying to maximize the multiball by hitting the drops and locking. Maybe it's a better game trying to get through the modes. I don't know from not owning it though if that is more fun than pounding the middle. I suspect someone who has owned it or owns it could comment a little more on the merits of the game.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

I suspect someone who has owned it or owns it could comment a little more on the merits of the game.

I've owned two over the years and your assessment is bang on, Glenn. The problem with the game is the best strategy is to just keep banging at the middle to start MB. Low risk, high return. The modes, while alot of fun, don't give many points. Once I figured that out, I found I didn't play the modes and it really took away from the fun of the game. I wish the game was more balanced, like TZ for example, and provided more points for the modes.

If you can ignore the fact that MB is the safest and most lucrative strategy and just play it, it is a fun game. The modes are great and challenging. The video modes are some of the best in pinball. The combination of three movies is done very well with equal representation given to each movie. It's just the damn unbalanced points that kills it for me. I really don't see a reason to play the modes -- if you are playing for points.

Duane

I agree to the multiball statement. Easy to get and rack up points.

However i personnaly almost never play for points on my games (except when i have been beaten by a guest, of course). I always try to play the game modes as they were designed to be played, no matter what the points result is. This, for me, is the funniest way of playing my games.

Proof is that everytime a guest show up, he will probably beat me on my own games and write his name on it, since i really dont care for points when i play.

I remember RAT (Richard) beating my loop champion on BSD once, when he delivered my JM. I think thats all he did for the whole game  

IJ's animations, modes and sounds are awsome AND the game does look great. I've seen better games in terms of gameplay as others mentionned, the pop bumper area and the time it takes to the ball to roll down the left side is a bit too long.. I still enjoy mine but will not hold on it until the rest of my life.

Quoted from TwilightZone

Dizzy is still in the band and tours with GnR.

Duane

That's not really GNR right now on tour, I'd have to argue that point Duane, Axl seems to be trying to give it one more go cashing in...... yet again. I'm wondering how long it will last this time

Last time in Montreal we got the royal shaft!!! no way am paying to maybe hear two songs!(IF he even shows up )

Quoted from Bally Boy

That's not really GNR right now on tour, I'd have to argue that point Duane, Axl seems to be trying to give it one more go cashing in...... yet again. I'm wondering how long it will last this time

Hmmmm...what are you arguing? Dizzy was with the original line up. He's been with the band since the early 90s and other than Axl is the only one still in the band. Far more than the "10 minutes" you stated. That was my original point. You're going in a different direction entirely.  

In terms of it being the original band, it's got Axl which is the main ingredient and tickets do sell. Take away the singer and the band isn't the same. Musicians can be replaced and, to the lay person, the band sounds the same.

Like you w/ GnR, I don't think the current line up for Kiss is really Kiss. The cat make up "belongs" to Peter Criss and the star child is Ace. But the lawyers would disagree and the same can be said for GnR. Axl retained the rights to the name.

Duane



Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

Hmmmm...what are you arguing? Dizzy was with the original line up.

Actually, that's not quite true... As you mentioned he joined in early 1990 but by that time he was the 6th person to have joined the band fulltime.

Everything you've wanted (or not wanted) to know about guns n' roses band members... Damn it reads like a frickin' soap opera.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Guns_N%27_Roses_band_members

and Paul Stanley was the starchild....... not Ace. Ha, ha.

I guess it's not really an arguement Duane - all in good fun

While I know Axl was a major component for band, the GNR that's touring right now, to me that's not really "the" GNR. After what happened the last tour I wouldn't be going to that show. I feel like they really let the "fans" down.

Truth be told I didn't really like them that much in the day.... but Appetite for Destruction was/is an awesome album, it's hard to dispute that. I've come around to that fact.

Quoted from Mrhide

yeah ... except the gameplay SUCKS DONKEYS BUTT

Yup 100% agree ... GNR is much more entertaining to play .. IJ not so much

Quoted from SquidVicious

Yup 100% agree ... GNR is much more entertaining to play .. IJ not so much

Then pardon my brashness, but why the hell are idiots paying in excess of 3500 for an IJ if it isn't all that??? another perfect example of overinflated prices simply due to pinball social status...

Quoted from Sparky

Then pardon my brashness, but why the hell are idiots paying in excess of 3500 for an IJ if it isn't all that??? another perfect example of overinflated prices simply due to pinball social status...

As opposed to $4500+ for a GNR?  

In that context, IJ seems like a steal!

Quoted from Sparky

Then pardon my brashness, but why the hell are idiots paying in excess of 3500 for an IJ if it isn't all that??? another perfect example of overinflated prices simply due to pinball social status...

Yup collectability = $$$$ not necessarily playability. I've never understood why IJ and TAF command the money that they do (especially since Mr Niceguy kicked my a$$ at the last TOPL tournament on IJ) but then again it comes down to what you like

Quoted from Monkeybug

As opposed to $4500+ for a GNR?  

In that context, IJ seems like a steal!

I guess I'd say GNR is alot more enjoyable to play than IJ so at the same $$$ value I'd take GNR in a heartbeat

I do believe Gn'R is more unique in that it a band based game and the only one that the band provided the music for. There are many licensed movie/tv themed games, some true to the theme; some good themes and some really shitty ones. The fact remains this tv/movie type license is common place, especiallly in todays new pin market.

Re-releasing an IJ by Stern I think to some extent hurt the IJ pinballs allure in that it no longer was "the" IJ pin, however dull that new release may be.

On Gn'R you do have to play the modes to get a good score. It is as lucritive as the multiball so once started you do want to play the mode. They made it easy to start modes and more difficult to play the mode vice difficult to start the mode and pointless to play it.

Next debate Popeye vs Raven.

Quoted from SquidVicious

Yup collectability = $$$$ not necessarily playability. I've never understood why IJ and TAF command the money that they do (especially since Mr Niceguy kicked my a$$ at the last TOPL tournament on IJ) but then again it comes down to what you like

Thanks Dan for bringing the discussion back to the actual pinball machine rather than continuing the debate over whether Dizzy  ( whoever that is ) was actually the 6th or 6.5th or 6.8th member to join the band.  I was about to tell all you guys to get a room !  

Also, thanks for mentioning your butt kicking on IJ.  Trust me, it doesn't happen very often so its nice to get some props when it does !

I'll take up the IJ Flag.

I find IJ to be a way better game for a number of reason.

Theme integration, the voice calls and theme integration on IJ is one of the best, it fits very well with the movie and the dot animations are great as well.

Modes, the variety of modes means you never have the same game twice, and all the modes are very varied and different which I find adds quite a bit of variety.  Also IJ has 3 of the best video modes in all of pinball.

Multiballs, the multiballs in IJ are all very fun, the main one is a little easy to achieve but harder to do well in.  I love the idea of locking balls to raise the overall value of the jackpot.  I also like that Ij has physical locks rather then virtual ones.  The feed from the idol to the flipper is also very nice and well done.  The well of souls multiball is a frantic 6 or 7 ball multiball which is great and the captiva ball 2 ball multiball is a chalenging multiball as well

Toys, IJ has some of the best toys in pinball as well, the POA is a great toy and very well integrated into the machine with a nice variety of using it between modes and on it's own.  As mentioned earlier the physical lock mechanism is very cool and then something as simple as the narrow escape just adds another layer of fun to the game.  

I really like playing IJ and look forward to getting mine up and running.  I find with GnR the modes are lack luster the multiballs are the same old, same old and it's crappy attempt to incorporate magnets into play is just pathetic and honestly quite stupid, why the hell are the magnets even there??  I mean at least in TAF it made sense for the magnets to be there, in GnR there is no real point other then to copy TAF and then they did a shitty job if implementing it.  

The only inspired piece that I like on GnR is the ability to double your mode bonus by hitting the inner loop, but I have yet to find a single GnR where that shot flows well.  I find the overall flow on GnR very clunky and not that enjoyable.  

The only thing GnR really has going for it is theme and sound, the price tag on the machine made sense when it was sub 3K the crazzies turning down $4500 and paying over $3K for it are just that crazies.  

Quoted from Bally Boy

and Paul Stanley was the starchild....... not Ace. Ha, ha..

Doh!!! You are right. How the hell could I goof up Space Ace....but you know what I mean

Quoted from Bally Boy

Truth be told I didn't really like them that much in the day.... but Appetite for Destruction was/is an awesome album, it's hard to dispute that. I've come around to that fact.

I guess that's where we differing...I was a fan back in the day and LOVED AFD, plus Use Your Illusion I & II. I saw them during the UYI tour and it was great.

BTW, Mr Niceguy.... !

Duane

I remember too when IJ could be picked up for $2500. In fact I know of one that went for $1500. It's probably the same argument for most any game that has risen in value over the last few years. Why did some go up far greater than others. IJ I am sure is a very fine game. People tend to get highly critical when games get pricey. Just look at all the verbal beating MM gets. If you could buy one for $2000 bucks people would be telling you the sky's had parted and God himself created the game.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

I remember too when IJ could be picked up for $2500. In fact I know of one that went for $1500. It's probably the same argument for most any game that has risen in value over the last few years. Why did some go up far greater than others. IJ I am sure is a very fine game. People tend to get highly critical when games get pricey. Just look at all the verbal beating MM gets. If you could buy one for $2000 bucks people would be telling you the sky's had parted and God himself created the game.

For some maybe it's the dollar figure .. for me it's based on what I find enjoyable to play LOTR>GNR>IJ. Same goes for titles my CV that I find very enjoyable or NF which I also really like but then again budget does come into it in some ways as I'd like a MM but would rather have CV + NF (and maybe have a few bucks in my pocket). Another comaprison for me is I like TZ but don't like TAF (basically same price and similar designs but one I find fun and the other not so much.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

I remember too when IJ could be picked up for $2500. In fact I know of one that went for $1500. It's probably the same argument for most any game that has risen in value over the last few years. Why did some go up far greater than others. IJ I am sure is a very fine game. People tend to get highly critical when games get pricey. Just look at all the verbal beating MM gets. If you could buy one for $2000 bucks people would be telling you the sky's had parted and God himself created the game.

Hell, I remember when GnR was a $1,600 game and that seemed about right to me. $3,000 plus for the game just doesn't work for me, but I understand the price is determined by the market.

Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

Hell, I remember when GnR was a $1,600 game and that seemed about right to me. $3,000 plus for the game just doesn't work for me, but I understand the price is determined by the market.

Duane

Prices were different when it looked like pinball had a bright future. Wait 4 months and Williams was going to bring out the next best thing in pinball. The writing is on the wall to say that we pretty much have what we have, so pick and choose wisely from what is out there and be prepared to pay for it.

Thankfully the restoration market for parts has improved immensly for some machines. Therein lies one of the other issues with Gn'R value. You have to be willing to pay for a reasonable condition one because restoration is out of the question with whats out there for parts.

Oh yeah Duane you should have bought three... and I should have bought a dozen NIB MM's and CC's.

IJ sucks. GNR sucks. Classic Sterns rock, and for the money you will spend on either one of these two pins, you can end up with a complete arcade.

'nuff said.

This being said, it is to pint out the lack of seriousness of this debate. It is more fun than serious, kind of like the Deathmatches. It comes down to personal tastes which cannot be debated.

Case in point? I rather own a Genesis than an IJ or GNR, and no one can convince me otherwise. Both are OK but both are ridiculously overpriced because of the theme. Buy a BSD instead... they are cheap due to a dated theme, but the game rocks and has nice toys on it.

Quoted from Sparky

Buy a BSD instead... they are cheap due to a dated theme, but the game rocks and has nice toys on it.

Or buy both like I did

Quoted from Vengeance

Or buy both like I did

I'd like to buy both...but I bought a kid instead.  Talk about a poor investment....

Quoted from Sparky

Buy a BSD instead... they are cheap due to a dated theme, but the game rocks and has nice toys on it.

And then sell it like I did once you discover the game is properly priced because it sucks a$$. Nothing but MB. Nice game to play at someone else's place, but it doesn't earn a spot in my collection. Just to keep the debate raging, Shadow is a much better game, is cruel like BSD, but has alot more to do and a great, great wizard mode.

Duane

Quoted from mrniceguy

I'd like to buy both...but I bought a kid instead.  Talk about a poor investment....

Totally!!  No Demon Spawn FTW!

Quoted from Twilightzone

And then sell it like I did once you discover the game is properly priced because it sucks a$$. Nothing but MB. Nice game to play at someone else's place, but it doesn't earn a spot in my collection. Just to keep the debate raging, Shadow is a much better game, is cruel like BSD, but has alot more to do and a great, great wizard mode.

Or just be like me and buy all 3

Quoted from TwilightZone

And then sell it like I did once you discover the game is properly priced because it sucks a$$. Nothing but MB. Nice game to play at someone else's place, but it doesn't earn a spot in my collection. Just to keep the debate raging, Shadow is a much better game, is cruel like BSD, but has alot more to do and a great, great wizard mode.

Duane

Like in that 40-year-old Virgin movie with Steve Carell:

Do you know how I know you're gay? You like Alec Baldwin.

I'm not even going to entertain comparing Premier. Old skool Stern, another one that is great.... in someone else's collection.

JM is better than all those B lists for play IMHO and besides Duane who knows you may have some luck with Keanu.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

JM is better than all those B lists for play IMHO and besides Duane who knows you may have some luck with Keanu.

I don't know Glen....I'm talking pinball. Seems Sparky and yourself spend more time oggling the backglass than playing the game. You know you guys can come out anytime now? It's pretty fashionable now especially in Montreal and Toronto  

You may think JM is the cat's a$$, but it totally, totally depends on that damn spinner million, billions, whatever mode. You cann't get a good score without it. Not with MB, not with any of the modes. That kills the game for me.

And I'll save Adam a post..."Or be like me and buy all four". Adam has Ij, BSD, Shadow, and JM.

And I'll throw in NF is better than JM or IJ and save Adam a post "Or be like me and buy all five" cause guess what other game he has !

Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

I don't know Glen....I'm talking pinball. Seems Sparky and yourself spend more time oggling the backglass than playing the game. You know you guys can come out anytime now? It's pretty fashionable now especially in Montreal and Toronto  

You may think JM is the cat's a$$, but it totally, totally depends on that damn spinner million, billions, whatever mode. You cann't get a good score without it. Not with MB, not with any of the modes. That kills the game for me.

And I'll save Adam a post..."Or be like me and buy all four". Adam has Ij, BSD, Shadow, and JM.

And I'll throw in NF is better than JM or IJ and save Adam a post "Or be like me and buy all five" cause guess what other game he has !

Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

I don't know Glen....I'm talking pinball. Seems Sparky and yourself spend more time oggling the backglass than playing the game. You know you guys can come out anytime now? It's pretty fashionable now especially in Montreal and Toronto  

You may think JM is the cat's a$$, but it totally, totally depends on that damn spinner million, billions, whatever mode. You cann't get a good score without it. Not with MB, not with any of the modes. That kills the game for me.

And I'll save Adam a post..."Or be like me and buy all four". Adam has Ij, BSD, Shadow, and JM.

And I'll throw in NF is better than JM or IJ and save Adam a post "Or be like me and buy all five" cause guess what other game he has !

Duane

Sorry dude... I like older SS pins with Faris, O'Connor (BEFORE they started pixelating...) and Christensen art. I am all for the ladies. I would even consider that bug-eyed leather-clad biker chick on Centaur, and Xenon gets me going.

as for Adam... I have a feeling he rather buy all four than get on all fours.


OK... this being said, I have friends that are homosexual, and kid about it more than I do. So before anyone gets offended by anything I write, know that I honestly do not care about all that discriminatory crap about men liking men and men oiling their coils. some men just like getting their coils oiled and that is just OK. To each his own.

Quoted from TwilightZone

And I'll save Adam a post..."Or be like me and buy all four". Adam has Ij, BSD, Shadow, and JM.

Owned? Yes I did own some of those.. but then I got serious about games and moved on.

You want to f&*k around in the big leagues, bring it on.

JM, BSD and Shadow ain't going to get you in.

Oh yes JM really is trash. Vengeance should sell that worthless POS. Duane your 100% correct. Spinner is the entire game.

I love cheese
J'adore fromage

Quoted from b1buwg97

I love cheese
J'adore fromage

As long as it isn't too smelly.

Yes I do love how these discussion can degrade into laughable insults flying back and forth. Makes my day.  

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Owned? Yes I did own some of those.. but then I got serious about games and moved on.

You starting Christmas early? I think someone's been in the sauce.

Been watching this thread going on and on and on and on...

Dammit I cant find the "beating a dead horse" smiley!

Quoted from wbradley

Been watching this thread going on and on and on and on...

Dammit I cant find the "beating a dead horse" smiley!

Just for you since it's Christmas...

You are so kind Duane.

I love my IJ, third pin I bought and it will be one of the last to go.

Why we have these debates is beyond me. Why are there so many flavours of Ice Cream? To satisfy everyones taste buds. Pinball machines are the same.....different pins for different folks. I find EM's boring as hell, yet some people love them. Call me a Williams snob, but that is what I like. To this day I do not understand all the praise heaved on the mighty TZ....I have owned four of them. I could repeat much of what Adam has already said about IJ, but it will not change anyone opinion, just like any of you could not change my opinion of TZ, so please do not try.

In the end this debate proves that a collection needs to be more than a couple pins. Once you own 4 pins or more you can appreciate the diversity of each pin. For me, I want 10-20 minutes games, IJ does that for me and the modes are great. When I am in the mood for long games, I will turn on LOTR, but that does not happen very often, SM and IJ get all the play time.