Ok so I am working on this System 7 board. I am thinking someone must have mixed up some connectors since I literally had to replace 4 TIP 102's in one section 4 2n4401's in another, a SIP, build a SIP, 1 PIA, 2 7406's, 2 7408's and the 5101. Now having worked through with Leon's test chip I could actually write a thread on how to use it to diagnose 90% of a Hyperball board. I say 90% because it will not test the last PIA that drives the display, so at this point I don't know how much merit there is in posting it. Needless to say the driver board is quite different in terms of locations of connections and layout but it still shares a lot of similarities with standard Sys 7 so there is some benefit from using Leon's chip. Testing procedures are slightly different though for sure.

Now it comes down to the subject at hand. I got the board and the 5101 CMOS ram tested bad straight off the bat. I ordered two for a very favorable price and one when installed was bad the other good. I ended up doing quite a bit of work on the boards afterward so the second one is probably my own mishandling but I managed to blow the second one. If anyone wants three useless hunks of silicone please let me know, I have a fire sale on a them right now.

Anyway I was reading up on how even during a battery change it is possible to blow the CMOS on these boards. I did some hunting around and found the following product.

http://pin-logic.com/SIMTEK%20ADAPTER.htm

Does anyone have experience with this product? I am looking at the lower of the two to replace the 5101 in this Sys 7 CPU and go to something more rubust.

Is there any other less volatile replacements to the original 5101?

Just for general information I found about 5101's.... this mod is looking better every minute.

From RGP

1:  5101 CMOS chips are very sensitive to static so you may have had a
good one in your hand and ruined it by not using
proper precautions.... ok I knew that, even with precautions I still f'd up
2:  There are some versions of the 5101 that were made to work with 4000
series CMOS stuff rather than 7400 series TTL
logic like you find on pinballs......so if you try one of these it wont
work.....hmmm didn't know that
3:  I have read numerous posts where folks cant get their 5101's to
work, many times this is because they are using one that is
too slow.  A 5101 whose speed is not rated high enough can cause for all
kinds of problems and grief in a pinball game. ....I could see this being a problem. I wonder what the speed of the original SRAM in System 7 is?

I taking a run down to Sayal this morning so I can plug in a replacement 5101 and try to keep moving on the project. After calling Sayal they do have stock but the stock is a "clean pull" which is used SRAM. I don't hold out a lot of faith in this ram and am rolling the dice that out of 4 I will get one good one and it will be fast enough. What are the chances?

For what it's worth Marco lists these as all compatible IC's

5101
5101L3
D5101L
D5101L-3
D5101LC
D5101LC-1
HA35101-5
M5M5101
MWS5101EL-3
S5101L-1
SCM5101C  - Sayal stock of approx 1700.
SCM5101E
SCM5101E-3
UPD5101LC
SCM5101C

I am at a loss here as to whether or not this is right with System 7 CPU/Driver board boot up since I don't own any others.

From the manual I have attached the instructions.

What I get when power is applied with the standard ROMs reinstalled.

7 segment flickers and then is off.

I press the test.

0 comes on briefly then the 7 segment goes out again.

Is that the way it's suppose to indicate if there are no failures and it's working i.e. nothing on the 7 segment?

Ok it's great to know no one either owns a System 7 or is able to press the test button on theirs if they do..... I would appreciate knowing if my CPU/Driver board is indicating as functional.

Anyway Sparky you can thank me later for not letting you get this project, your not missing any fun.

The power board is pooched. The +5 VDC regulated pumps out +12 VDC and has been again heavily worked on. The board is fixable but there is also no voltage out the 100DC out for the display either. I looks like R13 at the top of the board drops the voltage for the 5vdc after some regulation and upping the amperage through a Darlington. It is supposed to measure .12 Ohms. It reads as 1 Ohm but without knowing the current of the circuit it is impossible to tell if this is the only reason for the voltage being off, it should be lower not higher if anything which is why I am suspicious of the LM723 as well.

As to the 100DC problem a couple of NPN and PNP power transistors are fried and I am in the process of checking back on the circuits to the pre-drivers on those.

Ok here is another question. How many A-hole parts suppliers put "datasheet" written all over their sites without having a single datasheet available?

I'm working on my system 7 (black knight) right now. Mine doesn't even do what yours does.

I had similar problems with the power supply board in my Hyperball. After purchasing all the parts and doing the required repairs, I still had power problems. My best suggestion is to pop for a new power supply from Rottendog. That's what I ended up having to do to get a stable power supply so I could diagnose all the other problems my game had. You won't regret spending the money, believe me.

Quoted from Diamond Dave

I'm working on my system 7 (black knight) right now. Mine doesn't even do what yours does.

Other than Marvin here are two other good references to have.

http://pinball.flippers.info/system6resources.asp
http://pinballeon.com/will7/ewill7.htm

You should get a hold of the "new" test rom to start if your working on the CPU and driver board. I had a copy of the "old" one and the RAM check is flaky on that version.

The board is very straight forward compared to what I dealt with on the CPU on driver board. The biggest issue is trying to cross reference the partially described and often obsolete part no. I use this chart for transistors but I end up doing a lot of hunting for some IC's. I also run into stock issues. For instance that .12R 5W ceramic is special order but I will be putting a .2 and .3 5W cermamics in parallel off the shelf to get to my .12R.

Here is the chart for reference.




$75 for the board seems like it's worth saving the brain cells. I'm in it for the challenges still I guess in trying to make the original crap work.

Is this is the exact board your mentioning? In case my brain bails on me and I have to go for it. Plug and play?

http://www.rottendog.us/WPS079.htm

Yep, that looks like the same one I have in my Hyperball, it was certainly plug-n-play. I've bought a few things from Rottendog and his products are very high quality. Go for it, your brain cells will thank you for sure.  

BTW, thanks for posting those transistor charts, those could come in very handy.

I have that power supply in my Black Knight, it dropped right in and worked awesome, well worth the money. I used the  working boardset out of BK in another machine, so now I'm starting over again...

I am going to go with the foolishness of fixing the old one to start. It really comes down to the challenge which I enjoy. If I need to bail I will go for the Rottendog after I torture myself a bit. I pride myself on getting Stargate to run reliably on the original POS power supply and am going to try and buck the odds again for shits and giggles. It may end up doing harm to the CPU again but I think I can fix that thing in my sleep now should it take a beating from the supply after going over it several times.

Grauwulf if you want that original cross reference document PM me an email address and I will send you the Word copy for your records.

I had to laugh at myself. I was crawling all over this board testing components and I see what looks like the remnants of a component leg cut off flush. Check the board diagram and it's missing the big 18,000uf 20Volt cap, just to get an idea of the kind of crap that has been going on with this game.

Cosmetically it's great except for the BG. It has only one coil to be concerned with, but the boards. Sheeesh!

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Anyway Sparky you can thank me later for not letting you get this project, your not missing any fun.

Not really... I am smart enough to send ALL my boards to Mindstorm.   My digital soldering station has been gathering dust for 3 years...

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Ok it's great to know no one either owns a System 7 or is able to press the test button on theirs if they do..... I would appreciate knowing if my CPU/Driver board is indicating as functional.

I own 5 ... but I was away. Let me try it tonight and I'll let you know.

The problem with these "diagnostics" is that if there's a problem to start with, it screws up the diagnostics!

Seeing all that you changed, seems your board was really sick... but I know you like them challenges

I got my parts in from GPE and worked on the power board tonight. I had the option of dropping the display voltage by use of a different zener diodes from -100/+100 to +90/-90 to give longevity to displays so I made the change. After swapping virtually every axial cap, transistor, the LM723 voltage regulator IC, a whack of diodes, some resistors (including the one some a** put in that was completely the wrong value) Hey it's a resistor of some sort... it will work... NOT!... and almost all components on the HV side it is pumping out the right voltages steady as a rock. A little molex replacement on the G.I. circuit and I plunked her in.

Now I ran out of time but the game is booting into Audit mode (04 00) on the lower display, nice and brightly . I haven't had any chance to do anything beyond this but it would appear superficially that the adjust buttons aren't doing a thing. Like I say I had only a few minutes to play with it and decided to cut it short so I wouldn't be up to 3 am. looking at it.

Never worked with a System 7 before but there were no batteries in it and it has two switches on the coin door to register it's open or closed. When I opened the door the power dropped so I am thinking you pull the lower one on to play with the programming.

Question on a system 7 that has lost memory to the CMOS chip.

I have tested virtually every component associated with the 5101 and replaced most even though they checked out just on spec. As for 5101's I have a stack of them and Tom's Callahan's Simtek 5101 replacement. I have yet to get Leon's chip to not return an error on the 5101 check but with original roms the board continually comes up error free. I am starting to suspect that Leon's ram check test is faulty but I am still booting in "audit mode" when installed in the game.

Now here is my dilemma. I do not get the display on the upper displays that would be associated with the game number in audit mode. Audit mode is quite clear on the bottom score display but I am questioning now if on system 7 with loss of memory you have to run through and reset factory settings to get out of audit mode. Without the upper displays lit I don't know if I am able to make setting changes or if this would be required just to get into attract mode from a memory loss situation. This information would greatly help as I will shift my efforts from trying to figure out whether I am in audit mode is still as a result of the MPU or if I need to focus on the displays so I can do a reset of the system to get it in attract mode.

Here are two paras I am questioning and whether or not it should just restore some basic settings by itself on start up and enter attract mode. I did the double on/off with the door open already with no change.

Update. I found one issue that didn't help my cause. The coin door connector (both ends) were tucked away neatly and not connected when I put the head on. Perfect scenario that the two matching ends were both buried otherwise I would have figured it out right away. I was testing the switch at the memory protect circuit input and it wouldn't close. Traced it back and here are the two ends nicely tucked away in the gap under the head. Duh!

Ok I can advance settings and get the memory protect circuit to activate with the door closed which generates the correct error code of "9".

What would really help is if someone could explain what it takes to get a System 7 to run again after a battery change. Do you need to just turn it on, or do the double on/off thing with the door open or actually put some settings in?

If we could tear ourselves away from talking about Karmatose for 5 minutes and talk about pinball instead it would be appreciated.

Just shooting in the dark as I have NO Sys7 experience, but wouldn't you just have to set the date / time to fix that issue?

D

If you can get into the audit mode did you try to change any settings? The Coin door does have to be open(with the advance pulled out?)when the batteries are dead to boot up.

What ROMs are you running? L6? You should try L4 or earlier non hacked roms if you have them. Did you see this on Level 7?

http://level7.askey.org/Default.aspx?tabid=109&g=topics&f=13


http://level7.askey.org/Default.aspx?tabid=109&g=posts&t=50


When you can save the setting these are recommended:

IF memory serves me correctly, once you have good batteries in the holder, if you scroll through all the audits and drop it back to attract mode, you should be good to go after that.

James

Quoted from Grauwulf

IF memory serves me correctly, once you have good batteries in the holder, if you scroll through all the audits and drop it back to attract mode, you should be good to go after that.

James

Sounds like it's similar to System 11 then. You have to run through the audits to the end and then it will boot.

I am thinking it may be an IRQ interrupt problem where it won't address the other ROM's right now or it is still problems with the read/write to the CMOS.

It runs through all 50 audits. Goes blank and then comes back on in audits again. So to me it looks the same as what Sys 11 does but at the end of it all it either can't start the code in the other ROM's or read/write to the CMOS to save the initial audit settings.

I am going to check the interrupt circuitry next.

I don't see any issues with the interrupt.

Since it goes through the audits and then resets and goes back to audits, I am still suspecting the CMOS 5101 circuitry.

I will be checking the R/W, CS,~CS and Data Output pins in circuit. I am thinking it may be one of the TTL IC's that connect to the 5101 that is giving me grief. I would like to rule this out from Leon's test and the internal test passing but I don't know how extensive those test are to rule out this problem.

From the information I found out there I re-wrote this about the 5101 to help me out testing. I thought I would post it if anyone was interested for future reference.

The chip gets powered through pins 22 and 8, not the corners - 22 and 11, as most digital ICs. The address lines are pins 1 through 7 and 21. For the chip to function pin 17 must be high, and pin 19 must be low. These are the chip select pins, CS and ~CS. Chip select is normally used when many memory chips are wired in parallel. Pin 18 is the output data enable pin. If it is low, then the data stored at the location determined by address lines will be placed on the output - pins 10,12,14, and 16. Pin 20 is the read/write select line. When this line is high the memory chip is reading the internal store and placing it onto the output lines. When this line is low, the control inputs - pins 9, 11, 13, and 15 - are stored in the currently addressed memory location. The rest of the pins are memory inputs and outputs as shown.

Ok I pulled my hair out on this one.

First off I took for granted that the code on the ROM's was good. Big mistake!

Thank goodness a guy on RGP knew there was a glitchy rom version and pointed me in the right direction. Everything I checked on the board seemed to make perfect working sense but still the game would not go out of audit mode. Anyway Level 7 L-5 ROM's are faulty and the fault works 100% as advertised.

http://level7.askey.org/Home/tabid/92/Default.aspx

L-6 ROM's boot no problem at all. Love those Williams sounds.

Not out of the woods yet on this one. The displays are barfed up and I have no illumination on the pf other than G.I. but I am at least in a position again to start troubleshooting again.

Good to see that the end is a little closer for ya. I'm still running L4 code in my machine I believe. Do you have any other displays to try out in your machine? I believe Sys9 and early Sys11 use the same displays (I know my High Speed did). I ran in to a problem with the displays on my Hyperball not working correctly because the MC14069 hex inverters at IC 9, 10 and 11 on my display board were messed up because of the over-voltage from the power supply, same as what you had. You can always briefly plug you P1 and P2 displays in to the credit/match display cable and see if you get anything at all. If you do, I'd look at those chips first.

I don't have extras. Switching left to right yields nothing. I didn't try the credit/player one but it's new so it should be a good indicator. As for the one in the pf it has some missing segments but I can read it so I know it is partially working.

Just trying to appreciate now (haven't dug into the schematics on this yet) the PIA I versus IC 12 "Alpha Numeric PIA" distinction for displays. I am thinking by virtue of description alone PIA IC 12 was added to the driver board to do the pf display alone and PIA I on the MPU handles the backboard ones.

I am going through the driver board again but I will start where you suggested. Thanks for the input.

Quoted from Grauwulf

the MC14069 hex inverters at IC 9, 10 and 11 on my display board were messed up because of the over-voltage from the power supply, same as what you had.

Bingo. Thanks much for the tip. I went to check them and all three had one two bad gates on them.

Anyone for some slightly used hex inverters?

Edit. Well the power supply put up a harsh protest after the master display repair and blew 2 zener diodes in rebellion. I had the displays plugged in and had checked the 6118's and 7180's prior to plugging it back in and those IC's were good. So I suspect I have one or two shorted displays. Apparently the 6118's and 7180's have a pretty good sense of humor. They appear to have survived. It looks like the one display has a short due to oxidization on two adjacent solder points. Should have removed and cleaned them first.

Progress report. Oh I snapped the right pf apron looking plastic in the cold today "f*&K. If anyone has one... Tanner or Grauwulf maybe?

congrats on the progress!!

I knew you would get it working.............Congrats. So when are you going to CC the playfield?

Quoted from HP5P

I knew you would get it working.............Congrats. So when are you going to CC the playfield?

It's already CC'd. It's a chunk of plastic.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Progress report. Oh I snapped the right pf apron looking plastic in the cold today "f*&K. If anyone has one... Tanner or Grauwulf maybe?

I don't have one, but I would be happy to scan mine for you if you want to try and reproduce it.

James

I guess my Christmas wish will be to understand your repair log  

Congrats!

Thought this interesting to look at before plunking it back in the cab.

As you said, it's Christmas under there!  

Congrats on the ''resurection''.

Eric

You really have to appreciate the lights. All the lighting bolts are cpu/driverboard controlled.
I know I had a hell of a time getting all the lights to work 100%.

Displays are on the way!  

Well I am not sure about all this switches registering. The boards do but I may have a switch to be adjusted (or I am just a lousy shot). Without the displays I can't really trouble shoot the switches properly so that's next on the agenda. I did also find that the rotational mechanism for the shooter isn't as smooth as it could be. They used some hex screws that stick up and once and awhile snag a bit on that spring steel piece that goes back and forth. Makes twisting a bit ratchety at times. I am probably going to mod this by countersinking and using flush counter sunk allen screws. I looked to see if it was an adjustment or clearance issue but it looks to be just a bad design. As I get better at playing I find I am making shots toward the outer ends where they initiate and using the full range of motion considerably more. This game definitely takes a bit to get onto but if you get proficient is really a lot of fun.

Too bad they never caught on. This looked like it would have been a good game. It looks like it was screen printed vice a plastic pf so I don't know how it would have held up the the abuse from the rapidly fired balls.



"Spellbinder was the followup game to Hyperball. (The game was sure to be a smashing success, so another game in format had to be ready to go.) The photo here is of an unpopulated playfield for that game. Rumor has it that only one Spellbinder was ever made, and that it was probably scrapped.

Note the locations of the holes in the playfield. Viewers familiar with Hyperball will note that they correspond to the Hyperball locations, so that the Hyperball parts could be used with Spellbinder."

Found a couple of shots of early HB backglasses. I like the simple black one but why bother with backglass illumination? Game BG goes dark in play anyway I guess?

If you happen to get a nice Spellbinder image (enough to reproduce it), and send it to CPR with an order of 10 playfields, and then do the same with a backglass image, then take 10 Hyperballs and reconvert them, you can do it!!!



(would be fun though, money aside...)

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Well I am not sure about all this switches registering. The boards do but I may have a switch to be adjusted (or I am just a lousy shot). Without the displays I can't really trouble shoot the switches properly so that's next on the agenda. I did also find that the rotational mechanism for the shooter isn't as smooth as it could be. They used some hex screws that stick up and once and awhile snag a bit on that spring steel piece that goes back and forth. Makes twisting a bit ratchety at times. I am probably going to mod this by countersinking and using flush counter sunk allen screws. I looked to see if it was an adjustment or clearance issue but it looks to be just a bad design. As I get better at playing I find I am making shots toward the outer ends where they initiate and using the full range of motion considerably more. This game definitely takes a bit to get onto but if you get proficient is really a lot of fun.

Too bad they never caught on. This looked like it would have been a good game. It looks like it was screen printed vice a plastic pf so I don't know how it would have held up the the abuse from the rapidly fired balls.



"Spellbinder was the followup game to Hyperball. (The game was sure to be a smashing success, so another game in format had to be ready to go.) The photo here is of an unpopulated playfield for that game. Rumor has it that only one Spellbinder was ever made, and that it was probably scrapped.

Note the locations of the holes in the playfield. Viewers familiar with Hyperball will note that they correspond to the Hyperball locations, so that the Hyperball parts could be used with Spellbinder."

Found a couple of shots of early HB backglasses. I like the simple black one but why bother with backglass illumination? Game BG goes dark in play anyway I guess?

The first thing I would like to find is the original code and try and run it on HB.

Found this about HB from Steve posted on RGP. It's a good read and another good story about introducing a game at show before the bugs are worked out.

"You said, "Hyperball is like Rapid Fire", John,  BUT.. it's more like "Rapid Fire is similar to Hyperball", :<))  Sorry, but the truth is the truth!  H-B was introduced at the fall MOA show of '81 and it was a showstopper.  The booth was crowded with everyone in the building trying to play it, and we only had ONE UNIT on a raised platform in the palatial Williams Booth.  It had a terrible ball feed mech and I, (or someone) had to stand next to the game and control 2 SECRET SWITCHES under the over-hang of the backbox.  (By the way, Hyberball had a very important first...I made the first pinball-like cabinet with backglass area speaker(s) aimed directly at the player, as well as the cabinet bottom.  From then on, my pins, (High Speed might have been the first pinball, but not positive, but it doesn't matter.  H-B was the first. High Speed (and everyone else's games) had a speaker panel in the backbox from then on....SOUND IS IMPORTANT!!

But,.... not if you don't LIKE the sound!!.....No one could really hear it at the show, but as you made shots, the 3/4" balls would fall onto a masonite panel that was sloped to feed the reloading mechanism, and the balls were loud!! WAK-WAK-WAK-WAK!!!!  The gun could fire 6 balls a second, and would make your hands tired pulling the triggers!!!!!

When the feeder malfunctioned and no balls would arrive at the gun, I could discreetly hit the motor-reverse switch to unjam the loading mech.  There would be an awkward pause, but I would just keep smiling as the game would stop and restart.  I could also reset eveything, but rarely had to hit that switch!!!  It was a CORPORATE CHARADE of the highest order.  We all (at Williams) wanted a huge explosion of publicity and we got it with H-B, but then, we couldn't deliver the product, because it didn't work.

A respected rival Bally designer and friend was watching me on the stand and pretty much knew something was up.  He was noticing that my hand would often rest on the game in an awkward position while people played it, but the line of players and the crowd H-B generated at the MOA show (as it was called then) prevented any real focus on me and my switch-work making Hyperball work as correctly as I could.  It was a tiring & intense situation for me.  Sometimes we had to open the game and add balls, because THEY WERE LEAKING INTO THE CABINET BOTTOM!!!!

Bally had nothing like it at the time....we got tons of orders for H-B, and then we proceeded to make a completely new loading system (Archimedian Screw) because the original SUCKED.  It took all the way to the Spring Show (ASI?  AAMA?) to get it right. (6 MONTHS!!)  Come Spring Show lo and behold, there was Rapid Fire at the Bally booth!! It had it's problems, but the Bally guys had made their own Hyperball-like game.  Our problems were mostly solved, but the screw mech should have had a better quality motor.  A secret:  Bally called the Rapid Fire development "Project Xerox" internally.  A good friend at Bally shared this with me, and we both had a good laugh years later when Williams bought Bally pinball.  He was the same guy who was suspicious of my "switch-work" on the show floor.      

Steve"

Quoted Text

From then on, my pins, (High Speed might have been the first pinball, but not positive, but it doesn't matter.  H-B was the first. High Speed (and everyone else's games) had a speaker panel in the backbox from then on....SOUND IS IMPORTANT!!

good bit of trivia right there!

Some plastics have been replace, put in new glass, brand new balls, new power cord, displays are in (thanks very much Tanman), boards are fixed, mechanicals gone over and repaired as required, all bulbs, switches done, coin door got a fresh coat, cleaned all around, just debating about pulling the handle assemblies apart right now, sandblasting and giving them a fresh coat of black paint. Not sure how far I am going to continue but I feel I am almost ready to move it to my buddies place.

Great work! Thread like this are very interesting for rookie like me Do you have "before" picture so we can appreciate more the repair/restoration work?

Quoted from Hyann

Great work! Thread like this are very interesting for rookie like me Do you have "before" picture so we can appreciate more the repair/restoration work?

Sure. Click on the images to get bigger pics. These are the ones I got from the seller showing the project. If you want any pics of the boards after they were worked on I can shoot that for you.

The handles are a very prominent feature on the machine so I decided to re-do them.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

The handles are a very prominent feature on the machine so I decided to re-do them.

What do you mean by 'redo'? That looks awesome. Did you rebuild them from scratch?

Well I cleaned it up without a complete tear down of that assembly but wasn't happy with the handles being marked up. So I tore it all down which was a matter of some bolts, screws, C clips and roll pins. Cleaned off the old paint on the handles and shot them with three coats of semi-gloss acrylic lacquer. In the interim I was able to better re-grain the stainless where the parts joined up. Also there were a couple of nylon shafts for the trigger assemblies that I got the opportunity to clean up while they were out.

If you look at the earlier pics you will see the paint worn through to the metal.

wow.  this has come a long way from when i saw it with dave at starburst.   great work glen.  hyperball is still one of my wifes fav's and i will sooner or later get one for her.