I just wanted to bring my whole issue to a close and to warn people not to buy from jvegas if you do not physically see and check out the machine yourself.  Or at least have someone you know and trust go through the machine.

He is not a technician - yet you will see things like "needs only this and thats it", "plays excellent", "no errors", etc, etc.  These statements are very misleading and if you happen to be a newbie like me you may give them much more credibility than they deserve.

jvegas has said to me that I am not the first one to say I did not get what I expected from him.  He has said that he will no longer sell to someone who has not seen the machine.  I am not sure if this is true or not but I thought it would be only prudent to warn people on this forum that what you get may not be what you expect if you have not seen the machine yourself.

Sorry that he was unable to help me - even in the least - with the extra expense I have suffered as a result of "the machine has no errors and works great" when clearly it did not.  No one should have to go through what I have.  Please heed the warning...  

I would add that you shouldn't buy a used machine from ANYONE unless you see the machine yourself, are willing to gamble, or unless the seller is a professional pinball restorer. And that last criteria is debatable to me.

Another item of importance:
ALL machines, even new, will sooner or later develop a problem.

It is therefore important to either become educated about machines and electronics/maintenance,
or to find a reputable knowledgeable and affordable tech...

Edit: With all of the documentation and parts now available on the web these days,
it is easy to fix the most common issues with pinball.
When I started in this hobby nearly 27 years ago, there was really not much out there !
You guys have it easy now

Good luck !
- Sylvain.

always look at a game! when I bought my first game it was great everything worked so I thought. then I had a Friend with more experience come to look at it and found a whole bunch of little things (no big deal fixed em up). then a month later something failed on the power board I was in a panic. since I was a newb and really knew nothing, I looked up what the problem saw the fix on clays pages.  bought the parts replaced them and I was back in business. The long and short of this hobby is that what ever you buy new old it doesnt matter be prepaired becuase as I told many "they break, they break and did I mention they break?" moving can do it, heat can do it looking at it the wrong way can do it, having guests over to show them new toys will defnately do it. I have not blamed the previous seller ever cause it is me who agreed to buy it and after it leaves its former home it is all my problem. I know there are many on this forum who went thru the same we all learned the lesson. sorry you had a bad experience, but before the forum it was much worse there wasn't too many places to learn or voice your opinion at least this side of the border. just a quick word not the best idea to dismiss people in public because it doesnt matter there may be a game you want from a buyer and will not be able to get it think about it.

I totally agree with Sylvain. 4 years ago I bought my first machine and didn't know anything about pinballs except my son enjoyed playing one while I looked at a Ms Pacman game in a retail store. A few pinballs later  , I taught myself how to use a soldering gun, repair boards, restore playfields and feel totally comfortable buying any machine with issues to fix. Clays repair guides are amazing and if you know how to look you can even fix games with specific issues based on comments he's made about other games (ie IJ POA controls are similar to Shadows battlefield). I find I enjoy fixing and restoring almost more than playing now and nothing is a better feeling than starting with a game that has major issues and getting it 100% working knowing you did it yourself (with Clays and MAACA advice of course! )

Re buying sight unseen, I have bought games from Texas, Georgia and locally and I will tell you that pictures never show everything even when you try to take a picture of an issue and shipping can cause anything to happen. One of my first games was delivered across town and it left working (I was playing it before myself) and when arrived flippers wouldn't work. I won't even go into what happens from Texas to Ottawa .

Moral of the story - either learn to fix the machines yourself (it really is a lot of fun ) or if it isn't your thing, find a fellow collector to help or find a reputable technician who actually knows what he's doing without charging you like it's a Ferrari.

Have fun. It's only pinball.
My 0.02 worth
ME

Sounds to me like you've had a blinding flash of the obvious. As with anything else is this world, buying sight unseen is never a good idea. Would you buy a car without test driving it first?

What you learned is what a lot of people seem to learn in this hobby, if you can't or won't work on your machines yourself, it's a *very* expensive hobby. Don't rag on a seller because *you* didn't do proper research before laying out your cash. And don't expect to go back to a seller to cover repairs, especially when you got hosed on them. (Which I feel you did) If a "Service Tech" overlooks something as simple as putting a chip in backwards when there is a problem after removing/replacing said chips then he's not much of a tech. That's the first thing you should check, anything that was unplugged or changed which in this case was the chips and cables.

If you have no desire to learn how to work on your machines, be prepared to shell out a fair bit of cash to have someone do it for you. If you do want to learn how to work on your machines, my advice to you is buy a multimeter and learn how to use it. Spend a lot of time reading the online repair guides, and don't be afraid to ask lots of questions. As you have seen by all the advice you got on your "No sound" thread, people are more than willing to help you sort out a problem if you are willing to help yourself. The fastest way to learn (IMHO) is buy a older, less complex machine and learn on that.

*steps down off his soap box*

I gotta say I disagree completley with the general sentiment that it is the buyers responsibility to ensure he is getting what is advertised.  Why is pinball the only hobby where the buyer is blamed for the sellers mistakes or down right lies??

I have no idea the details of this transaction and I've never dealt with Jim myself so I can't offer any opinions related specifically to Jim or this transaction but the sentiment that the buyer is responsible kinda sickens me.  Yes things break in pinball, wires fall off, things happen but generally the machine should be in as advertised as shape.  Igonorance is not an excuse in my book, if you don't know the condition of something you are selling, don't claim to understand its condition.  If you buy a machine as 100% working with no errors, that is what you should get and if problems begin to pop up the same day you receive a machine then the seller should take responsibility.

This opinion that you should have to see a machine yourself is wrong, if you want to make sure then yes see it yourself but if a machine is advertised as 100% working that is what you should get.  I know in every machine I have sold I have fully disclosed every thing with the machine, I don't try and hide it with pictures.  If there is a problem I want the buyer to know so their are no suprises when they get the machine.  I've only sold 5 or 6 machines but I've never had a buyer come back to me with problems because they knew what they were getting.  

Here is an example, if you bought a used car from a dealership as in great shape and working 100% and as you were driving it off the lot the rear axl falls off the car or the engine craps out or something to that nature.  Would you respond with opps, sh*t guess I shoulda gone over it better sucks to be me, or would you be royally pissed off that you just got hosed buy a crappy seller?

I have to agree
If you dont see the machine in person try it or test it in person then you should not buy it.
Because hay I have done a few buy and always inspect because i got burned first time.
I purchased a few things myself from Jim I Also worked for him for abit you really have to try his machines and inspect.
because games from ebay can be really scary trust ME.
You IJ was nothing compared to a Fun Popeye I never saw somany hacks in my life.
Yes i got a good price on it but machine in the end was worth more then in the book.

Hmm... I find this discussion a bit funny. Although I agree 100% with the given statement that you should check the machine before you buy, I don't see why Jim should be pointed out in this.

This is just my 0.02$ worth:

Jim likes to buy pins off of the web. No secret there. Now, where I have a problem is that some expect that the machines are perfect. Jim deals with the same info as any of us off of the web, which is emails and pics. And thus, if you buy from Jim BEFORE he receives the machine, the risk is just as much yours as it is his. I can honestly say that I bought one game from Jim as well, and yes, my cabinet was rough. Who cares... I knew that Jim had little info on it. So I went and got it. Hell, it goes both ways too... even I have sold a pin or two which never had a problem when I had it and developped problems later... doesn't make me Satan... and I have always tried to disclose as much as I can see. I even remember selling Jim a Meteor on which I forgot 1 leg and the sound got all screwy when we set it up at a meeting at the warehouse. Jim's answer: it happens, no worries.

Am I dissappointed? Not one bit. Jim does us all a favor by bringing in many games. In fact, I am thrilled. The game has an excellent playfield and works. The rest I can deal with it. I even feel like crap due to Jim lowering his price (hey Jim... the FULL amount will be coming your way...)...  He doesn't have to, but does it anyways. As for buying pins with problems, it happens. Even in HUO pins (like that TSPP discussed in another thread).

So before anyone bites the hand that feeds them, look closely at the situation. Jim rarely makes money on his pins... he just likes the thrill of buying them. We all have that rush. So when Jim gets sick and tired of getting bashed on, you can go and buy the pins yourself off of Ebay and Mr.Pinball and bash on the direct sellers instead.

Either that, or go buy whatever pins you can find locally. I am sure that you would much rather get a Hollywood Heat that you can see for yourself anyways...

This being said, Jim, I look forward to my next purchase from you, no matter what it is!!! I promise to get that Heavy Metal all minty again, and you are welcome to come over for a beer and a mullet-experience!


Sparky

Quoted from Vengeance

I gotta say I disagree completley with the general sentiment that it is the buyers responsibility to ensure he is getting what is advertised.  Why is pinball the only hobby where the buyer is blamed for the sellers mistakes or down right lies??

Have you ever heard of "Buyer Beware"?  It applies to a lot more than just pinball, but it certainly doesn't exclude pinball either.  Be an informed consumer, check the machine thoroughly before you put your cash down.

I think the reason this applies more to pinball, than say - cars, is that given the number of yearly car sales as a whole, most times people aren't buying cars as a collector's item. They're buying it to use as transportation.  There are a lot of cars...even if a buyer was looking specifically at buying Nissan, Ford, or what have you...they're plentiful, and they're always in every city.

With pinball, most people here are now buying them for home use, and as a collector's item.  A specific machine usually isn't located where you live.  You have to arrange to pick it up, or have it shipped.  A lot of times, people are relying on digital photos, and the seller's reassurances that everything is as it should be.

I think the majority of sellers try to represent their machines fairly and honestly.  It's important the the buyer fully understands what they're buying, and that they should pre-negotiate repairs or compensation of any failures that occur directly after the sale.

Being remote in Calgary it gets hard to look @ pins.   For your next purchases, if you see them in Ottawa, Montreal or Toronto, ask a few local MAACA folks to look @ them.   I'm not qualified enough, but I'm sure there's others that would go willingly.    If I recall correctly, I think many suggested "The Shadow" in Calgary as it satisfied major criteria (1) you could see it first hand & (2) it was owned by a collector & (3) it was a good title.

You went in big with two nice machines - congrats!    Takes big ones to do that!    You had the guts to take out the chips & look @ stuff, too - and you resolved that on your own - so your on the road to doing it yourself.  

Quoted from Bish

Have you ever heard of "Buyer Beware"?  It applies to a lot more than just pinball, but it certainly doesn't exclude pinball either.  Be an informed consumer, check the machine thoroughly before you put your cash down.

Buyer Beware is usually used in refrence to when a seller has poor buisness ethics and thinks nothing of screwing people our of their money.  Buyer Beware doesn't apply to every single purchasing transaction as a consumer.

Quoted from Bish

I think the majority of sellers try to represent their machines fairly and honestly.  It's important the the buyer fully understands what they're buying, and that they should pre-negotiate repairs or compensation of any failures that occur directly after the sale.

I agree the buyer should try and be informed but the seller should also disclose any problems.  As an example, if you were selling a machine and you knew the drop targets wern't working, would you sell the machine as 100% working with nothing wrong or would you sell it as working but there is a problem with the drop targets. Or if you knew there was wear on the inlanes, would you hide it in the pictures and say playfield is in perfect shape or would you say the playfield is in great shape but there is wear in this inlane.  To me that is the diffrence between a bad seller and a good seller.  If you are not disclosing that iformation to the buyer so they can make an informed decision as far as I'm concerned you are a bad seller.  

Quoted from Sparky

Jim likes to buy pins off of the web. No secret there. Now, where I have a problem is that some expect that the machines are perfect. Jim deals with the same info as any of us off of the web, which is emails and pics.

That depends, I'm not bashing Jim, I've never dealt with the man so I can't say anything, I'm more disagreeing with the general statment that it's the buyers fault.  But lets use this as an example, if Jim buys a machine off eBay and you let Jim know you want it and he says, "Look this is what I've got for a description, these are the pics I got, I've got no other information other then that it's up to you if you want it or not"  Then yes I 100% agree that it is now up to the buyer to take responsibilty and find out what is wrong with the machine before ponying up the money.  But if Jim when selling these machines that he now owns is saying "Yes, this machine is great, works great no problems, I've seen it myself I've had a tech go over it and everything is working perfect."  I disagree, at that point Jim is now responsible for the machine regardless of where it has come from, I'm still paying Jim for it he is responsible for that machines condition and if he says it works 100% it should work 100%.  

I have no idea what the situation is again, I'm not bashing Jim I'm just using him as an example of what I would consider the diffrence between a good and bad deal is.  

Quoted from Vengeance

But lets use this as an example, if Jim buys a machine off eBay and you let Jim know you want it and he says, "Look this is what I've got for a description, these are the pics I got, I've got no other information other then that it's up to you if you want it or not"  Then yes I 100% agree that it is now up to the buyer to take responsibilty and find out what is wrong with the machine before ponying up the money.  

This is exactly what Jim does... he passes on the same pics and info he receives from his seller.  He has never made any secret of that.  If you look at some of his posts he responds to many questions with "have not seen the machine personally" or "still waiting for it to arrive".  It's pretty clear that he buys a machine, lets people know that it's coming in and gives all the information that he has.

Jim is not in this to make money, he's not trying to screw anyone.  It's time to stop screwing him.

Mike.

Quoted from newf112

Jim is not in this to make money, he's not trying to screw anyone.  It's time to stop screwing him.

Mike.

Not sure where you might think I'm scrweing him as I've said a number of times I'm not passing judgment I have no idea the details of the transaction I only used him as a example.

But if that is the case then sinpin I'm with everyone else on this, if Jim told you that he had limited information and what you see if what you get then the rest is up to you to ensure you are getting what you want.  Sorry your first deal didn't go the way you wanted it to, but to be honest, your first deal is allways the worst deal, I'm sure every pinball collector will tell you that.  

Quoted from Vengeance

your first deal is allways the worst deal, I'm sure every pinball collector will tell you that.  

Hallelujah!    Someone's signature (Goodsicka? has it too I believe.   Something like "Happiness is selling your first pinball machine!".   My worst deal was my first pin - fortunately in much different $$$-bracket though!    

The good thing with sinpin is he definately "Went big!" - so although he's out maybe more money than he wanted - he has nice pins that are keepers.    

Quoted from Vengeance

If there is a problem I want the buyer to know so their are no suprises when they get the machine.

This is the wiseset philosophy to follow, should be a MAACA credo.

Any routed machines are the ones most likely to have issues, worn playfields, and electronics hacks (does a working machine with hacks qualify as 100%?).

A combination of what the buyer wants to hear, and what the seller is willing or able to tell often conspire to hide all the defects.

There are a few sellers/collectors/repairers that I have dealt with that actually undersell what they deliver, i.e. they put more back into the machines than they will ever get out in a sale, and I look forward to dealing with them again the most.

Too many quotes to try to reply but here is the just of it...

I waited weeks for Jim to finally get this machine.  When he got the machine he said he had someone look at it and confirmed with him as well that there was one minor hack but everything else looked good.  The machine was working 100% no errors and played great.

He then gave me all of a couple of days to make up my mind before he was going to go to the next person on his list of "waiting" for the machine.  This is another technique I question and no longer take at face value.

I asked questions about what other "service" issues may be needed.  None as far as he could tell.  

Now perhaps this post is just to state the obvious - don't buy from jvegas without seeing the machine and/or having a technician check it out first.  That's all I am saying here.  He has agreed to that himself in telling me that because of this he will "no longer sell to anyone without them seeing the machine first"

I believe that some of the machines he has are "fixer upers" and people expect that it will need some work.  But let's get real - I paid $3500 for an IJ machine - that should be market price for a machine that is in decent condition and not needing $700-$1000 of work - IMHO.  

Of course I am a newbie and I do not know much - yet.  Except that I was led to believe this machine was in much better condition (mechanically) than it was.  The idol not working and the drop targets not working were real wiring issues (wires were cut, soldered in the wrong places, etc, etc).  Although I know Jim could not have known the extent of the repairs required - I find it hard to believe that someone did not realize that the targets were pulsing and not resetting properly and that the idol was spinning around and not releasing/locking balls propertly.

Yes, it is buyer beware but I will leave it with this - I purchased a NIB Simpsons on ebay for $3600.  The machine arrived exactly as described.  New, in the box.  The shipping company must have hit it with a forklift as the plunger was broken as well as one of the plastics.  Seller says "no problem" and will be sending me the new parts I need or compensating me for the cost to replace.  Now isn't that the kind of service we would all like to expect??  Would have been easy for them to say "buyer beware" or "it was the shipping company" or "not our fault".  

This is probably why most people say "buy an older pin first, learn from it", as this comes in handy later on.  I think part of the issue here is expectations on sinpin's part, which is the same expectations I had a few years ago. Then when I spoke to other pinheads and found out just how much "attention" a pin needs, I understood for the first time I'll need to adapt and learn to maintain/repair.  It actually scared me off, only messing around with my friends Taxi took a little bit of the scary factor out, it's not that bad.  Now, I'm ready to take the plunge myself.

It's all dependant of what was part of the purchase agreement but as it is with the info I see, I don't detect any wrong doing here, except for an expensive lesson learned that was no fault of anyone but a lack perhaps of due dilligence.  Again, a little while ago with the perception I had, I would have done the same thing Sinpin, this isn't a shot at you!

But as it's been said before, for your first 2 machines sinpin, WOW!  Those are permanent keepers, you probably fall into the 1% category of first time buyers with those 2 very high quality pins.

I have bought pins from JVEGAS AND OTHERS PEOPLE,I always find problems that others overlook or will not find untill the game has been played by someone who knows the machine.I do a lot of tec work and pinballs are like cars,a test drive just won't tell you all the problems.Shipping a pin can cause more problems and a lot of sellers will not waranty a pin for that reason.It's a part of this hobby that you have to deal with as best you can,I don't mind these problems because it's the challenge of making them work perfect that is fun at times.New in the box pins might be best suited for you ,IJ was made in 1993 and will need work to keep it running.At 15 years old I know there will be some issues.Price always depends on condition and the price guide is as it says,is just a guide.
My 2 cents

Quoted from sinpin

I paid $3500 for an IJ machine - that should be market price for a machine that is in decent condition and not needing $700-$1000 of work - IMHO.  

Perhaps you should have investigated your tech's cost too...

You paid $800 for :

Bridge Rectifier  , Molex connectors X 4 ,
LED transmitter and receiver assembly , TIP transitor
some Flash lamps and some springs on drop targets,
and finally some fuses and new pinballs.

I'd be surprise if that even amounts to $50 in parts (if that...)

I know ALOT of guys who would be thirlled to do a few hours of work for $750 !

I don't think you would have posted this thread if the cost to fix the machine
had been $150...

I didn't see the pinball myself, but I would assume that it was in good cosmetic shape,
and that's most likely what determines the value of a pin.
(... a $3500 pin doesn't drop to $2500 because of a few fuses and transistors ... )

While I agree that it's frustrating to pay big bucks expecting a flawless machine,
(especially for people new to the hobby), I also think it's a little risky to buy
such an expensive (and complicated) pin as your first purchase
without knowing how to fix the inexpensive problems.

Still, I'm glad you got everything working and hope you enjoy your new game.

cheers,
Steph

Quoted from Tuborg

Someone's signature (Goodsicka? has it too I believe.   Something like "Happiness is selling your first pinball machine!".

That would be JD's old signature line, I believe. He's a very eloquent man, don't you know.
My motto has always been 'buy high, sell low'  ...
Which is why I endeavour to only buy items that I plan on keeping for a long time. That way when I do sell, I've usually forgotten how much I originally spent.

Adam

I think the basic flaw here with the Inspect it before you buy it is the ability to do that. I know of 3 IJ Pins here in Calgary and None of them are for sale. Are there others around, probably, but good luck finding them and if you do find one, is it for sale? And is it working 100% anyway? So, if you want an IJ, then you have to go elsewhere. I have bought machines from a lot of people and a Lot of places, including over seas, based on Pics descriptions and advice, I have received mostly good pins in reasonably accurate condition. Some better than I thought and some worse. The thing is, If I want a Road Show, I need to get one shipped, because I can't find a local one, so how do I inspect it? And if I find someone to inspect it, are their opinions the same as mine? One persons 8 out of 10 is Waaaaay different than another persons 8-10! So you need to take everything with some lower expectations, then you are usually pleasantly surprised. If they say 100% working, I would hope for 80% with nothing major.    Another thing to remember, and this for general information, Some people selling games think the game works 100%, but they don't know the lights in a Space Station all go Green, or in a Party Zone, or that Rudy's (Funhouse) Eyes are supposed to close or his Lower lip "quivers" when he snores. There are tons of little things that may not have worked for the seller and they never knew they were supposed to do that. When I got my TFTC after a few games we found out the ball drain was happening in the middle of hitting the right ramp, that is a tough shot and when the seller plays a few games and doesn't hit it, it works as far as he knows. Turns out a Diode was on backwards and caused the out hole switch to activate. Do I blame the seller, yup, do I care, Nope, was it interesting to figure out what happened and to learn why You Bet!

That all said, Sinpin, When you are in the middle of a game on your IJ and all of a sudden the game ads a player 2 or 3 or 4, or a few other strange things that you are not sure are wrong or don't believe that just happened, look at the diode on the bottom right under the Mini Playfield, It will be bent and shorted across itself and needing to be straightened out! Every IJ will do this eventually as the ball going in and out of the Mode Start Saucer can, and will, hit the damn thing and bend it. There, that just saved you Hours of Grief!!  

Dave (I am sure this Rambled on and makes no sense)

I have met/talked to JVegas (Jim) many times, as well as bought a machine from him, and he is a stand up guy. You even admit it yourself that he didn't actively try to deceive you, and that he was not fully at fault, but you still think you should come on here and bash the guy publicly. I don't know if you decided to do this publicly in an effort to try and force Jim to refund you some money. But when you start talking about how someone else who sold you something, and at no fault of his own, the item was damaged and decided to make it up to you out of their own pocket, it really seems like that is what you are doing by posting this.

The real person you should be mad at is the guy who charged you the $800 for fixing the machine. Man, you can buy older, fully working machines for what he charged just to fix your machine.

this isn't a first with jim and might not be the last.

  problem is jim buys without seeing the machines.  then turns around and keeps the great ones for himself and sells off the poor ones that come in.  how many keepers has it been now.  i don't blame him.   just wish he wouldn't say a machine has been completly looked over and checked out.  when it hasnt'.  that is what i think sinpin had the problem with.  also that he paid for a top dollar and thought he was getting a top machine.
   that is somewhat the same problem i had with my last deal with jim.  paid top dollar.  burnt the crap out of me and then he offer it to others for over a grand less.  still even that buyer pass it on, due to how much problems the machine had.  it wasn't worth it to him.  i could have bought one nib for the price it would cost on fixing and the price i was paying.
    then to be told you are no longer allowed to buy from him and have others hear that.  
        it just kind of sucks to have the feeling your the one getting blamed for doing something wrong, when all you were doing was taking someone at their word.
   just glad he didn't have worse problems.  the amount isn't that high in repairs (thank goodness).

Quoted from BZM

I have met/talked to JVegas (Jim) many times, as well as bought a machine from him, and he is a stand up guy. You even admit it yourself that he didn't actively try to deceive you, and that he was not fully at fault, but you still think you should come on here and bash the guy publicly. I don't know if you decided to do this publicly in an effort to try and force Jim to refund you some money. But when you start talking about how someone else who sold you something, and at no fault of his own, the item was damaged and decided to make it up to you out of their own pocket, it really seems like that is what you are doing by posting this.

The real person you should be mad at is the guy who charged you the $800 for fixing the machine. Man, you can buy older, fully working machines for what he charged just to fix your machine.

Sorry but you are INCORRECT here.  The reason I posted this on this forum is what my title says "NO SEE, NO BUY".  Jim said himself that he should not sell to people who have not physically seen and looked at the machine themselves.  He went as far as saying he will NEVER sell to anyone that has not seen the machine again.  I am not forcing Jim to refund me any money - that conversation is over.  And, of course, he made no money on my sale so how could I expect money back from him -  

I have been in sales for many, many years and those of you who believe that jim makes no money and does it for the fun have BEEN SOLD - hands down.  SOLD - SOLD - SOLD.  That is the oldest sales trick in the book.  Here are a few others in case you all don't see it:

I have 2 other people waiting for this sale so make up your mind quickly
I am getting out of the business soon (meaning - buy from me now or you might not get another chance)
I am taking a loss on this sale.
Just need to sell to clear room for others (closing out sale, bankrupsy sale techniques)
Make the people with the most influence happy with your service (funny how Sparky our site admin is very happy with Jim and sticks up for him BIGTIME)

Look, I am not trying to start a war here.   My original point stands that with jvegas (especially) you really should see before you buy.  His sales techniques and descriptions are questionable but not fraudulant.  

I would, however, highly recommend Superior Amusements on ebay.  NIB Simpsons will have my damaged parts here in 2 days or I have the name of the person to contact.  

Quoted from sinpin

Sorry but you are INCORRECT here.  The reason I posted this on this forum is what my title says "NO SEE, NO BUY".

Then why make it personal and attack him? Why not just make a generic post about how people should always see the item in person instead of singling him out?

Quoted from sinpin

He went as far as saying he will NEVER sell to anyone that has not seen the machine again.

Ya mainly due to people like you who make a public stink of things like this.

Quoted from sinpin

I am not forcing Jim to refund me any money - that conversation is over.  And, of course, he made no money on my sale so how could I expect money back from him -  

I have been in sales for many, many years and those of you who believe that jim makes no money and does it for the fun have BEEN SOLD - hands down.  SOLD - SOLD - SOLD.  That is the oldest sales trick in the book.

You have not been in this hobby very long and it shows. Very few people have made much, if any money at all selling machines in the last few years. You should be happy to have people like Jim who bring in machines, as no one is doing it any more in Canada except for dealers. Fell free to go to a place like Starburst in Toronto and ask them how much for a IJ in good condition. If you thought the $3600 you paid was fair market value, and expect to pay anywhere near that, expect to be amazed.

Quoted from sinpin

Make the people with the most influence happy with your service (funny how Sparky our site admin is very happy with Jim and sticks up for him BIGTIME)

If you are implying that Sparky gets some sort of kick-back, "special price", or that Jim will do anything to please him just to get favorable reviews, it really shows that you have no fucken idea what you talking about.

Quoted from sinpin

I would, however, highly recommend Superior Amusements on ebay.

Until they screw you?

Quoted from sinpin

Make the people with the most influence happy with your service (funny how Sparky our site admin is very happy with Jim and sticks up for him BIGTIME)  

There's something you don't see every day. The words 'influence' and 'Ian' used in the same sentence.
Kidding aside, I think you may have stepped over the line just a little on that one.

Adam

Sinpin ill buy that IJ off you for 1500 cash right now, and i won't evne look at it

I'm sorry you had to go through that, bud.  I'm new to the world of pins myself, and my first buy was  T-2, but i went to look at it and I didn't know how to even get into test mode (knew nothing).  The guy said it worked 100%, i got it home and the wrong coil + missing gate ni the trough were causing problems in the trough area.  My guess is the guy probalby knew it was not working right but wasn't sure if it really was a problem or not.  But i educated myself, asked questions, and learned real quick, and now i'm getting better and faster at finding the problems with my machines, to the poitn where if it's doing something i can think "ok it's this or that".  I think it is very wise, especially with pinball machines, to learn how to fix the more basic things.

I definitely agree with you that the seller should have some responsibility.  If he says it's working 100% and you get it home and a bunch of errors happen, something is fishy.  If you just have 1 switch out on the transit home, well that could have just been coincidental...but man educate yourself on the cost of parts and visit that pinrepair.com site.  It is such a great site.  Any new fellow can follow the step by step procedures to fix most problems.  The one awesome thing about pinball machines is that for the most part, they were designed to be worked on and repaired regularly.  It's nice that the schematics and wiring diagrams are all provided inthe manuals for owners of the machines to fix.

I wish you the best.  Quit buying online man!  Buy local from private owners. MY first buy, i probably overpaid by 100 bucks or so and was thankful.  After buying that machine, i started hanging around here and got brought up to speed on the value of the games and it's very educational to just read the threads that these veterans start about problems, prices, value on machines, etc.

I wish you all the best man.  

If I can add a bit of geographical interjection. Sinpin seems old school. Where your word is your bond, and you are expected to take care of people you don't know. He's a westerner, and we tend to operate more like that our here.
Jvegas, who I also don't know, has a more eastern attitude where you don't babysit anyone, and you are expected to do your own homework, and make your own decisions.

From what I see, Sinpin expects Jvegas to operate as he would, and the majority of the board says jvegas didn't force Sinpin to do anything. Neither are right or wrong, it just depends on your postal code.

As a tip to Sinpin, the USA is much closer than Quebec and Ontario, so look south and west, not east. Also, another tip to Sinpin, (this is jvegas's home board where everyone has known him for a long time). Chalk it up to experience, and don't burn any bridges with such a knowledgable and helpful group of people, (and easterners at that! )

(Now don't bash me too much, my wife is from Montreal . . .  OK maybe the wife isn't a good example  .)

Quoted from BZM

Then why make it personal and attack him? Why not just make a generic post about how people should always see the item in person instead of singling him out?




Ya mainly due to people like you who make a public stink of things like this.



You have not been in this hobby very long and it shows. Very few people have made much, if any money at all selling machines in the last few years. You should be happy to have people like Jim who bring in machines, as no one is doing it any more in Canada except for dealers. Fell free to go to a place like Starburst in Toronto and ask them how much for a IJ in good condition. If you thought the $3600 you paid was fair market value, and expect to pay anywhere near that, expect to be amazed.



If you are implying that Sparky gets some sort of kick-back, "special price", or that Jim will do anything to please him just to get favorable reviews, it really shows that you have no fucken idea what you talking about.



Until they screw you?

You are completely right.  You must drive a big truck or something - to be so keenly in tune with the world.  

I am so, so sorry for what I have done.  I mean no disrespect to this board or anyone on it.  I was only meaning that Jim is a great salesperson by my comments.  I have now changed my mind on this issue.  I have seen the light...  This was all my fault and I accept responsibility for my losses.  

Sorry to Jim as well.  I guess I really didn't know what this whole hobby was about.  Let's say that I have definately learned my lesson.  Who am I to tell any of you anything about pinball when I clearly know nothing.  

I do appreciate the assistance with the problems I was having - for that I am very grateful for this forum.

Hey he was not making much money or almost no money on allot a games sure some he did.
Not all the machines make him money and what he does make with one pay pretty much for the other 3 that don’t.
But allot of them cost money to ship and some repair that can be not cheap but not 800$ mind you he would actually sell the machine a project at one point.
but still money out of his pocket.
If you’re curious on how much he makes look at the games he buys on eBay.
You can look up the past 30 days on eBay and see what he paid for it.
Also do you think everybody paid what it is listed at?
F no there’s allot of dealing.
Personally I like Jim I have personally worked with him nice guy to nice sometimes.
he can be a little bliss on what he buys but he is a gambling man.
EBay is the next Vegas in many ways for Jim.
Also trust me pinball is not his bread and butter way from it.
He a shoes salesman not All Bundy mind you but has 3 nice store or did that change also?

Quoted from sinpin

I have been in sales for many, many years and those of you who believe that jim makes no money and does it for the fun have BEEN SOLD - hands down.  SOLD - SOLD - SOLD.  That is the oldest sales trick in the book.  Here are a few others in case you all don't see it:

Not that my opinion really makes any difference, but I think you're both nuts; Jim for buying boatloads of machines he has no intention of keeping and selling them at a loss while they're still in transit , and you for making your first two pin purchases $3500+ machines that you have never seen in person and have no idea how to maintain. I don't understand either of you.  

And Jim might be a good salesman, but if you think he's making money doing what he does, I think you're incorrect. His ebay purchases are open for all to see and after the shipping cost is added in, I suspect there are few machines he makes any money on.

- My very humble two cents.

Now, if you'll pardon me, I have to go play my very well-maintained, inexpensive and very fun games.  
  
Corey

A cooke, the man of reason.  Oddly enough this is one of those threads where there's enough half-truths floating about that everyone's half right.  

my two cents is if your not happy with your transaction keep it between you and the seller. I have had over 40 pins or more in my collection and have sold to many maaca members and have had some problems after they have picked up or shipped there pins without me knowing it had a problem.I have been working with pins many years and didn"t even know party zone had a mode were the lights turn red buy the buyer called me and i fixed the problem. As for making money on selling pins hardly ever I just want what I paid for it including a rubber kit that I always put on.
I hope this makes sense as this daylight savings time is really fu%$#ng me up. Now who wants to buy a supersonic for 600.00
Paul
P.s Pins only did you get my twister

Quoted from sinpin

Make the people with the most influence happy with your service (funny how Sparky our site admin is very happy with Jim and sticks up for him BIGTIME)

...

I have thought long and hard on how I would reply to this. People who have known me for years know well that I can take pretty much anything anyone can throw at me, but 4 things really get me mad. Insulting my integrity is one of them. I have never sold out in my life. If I did, MAACA would have been dead and buried long ago. But I will be a man and leave it up to a snowball effect that caused people to say things that they didn't mean to say. No harm done. I understand the frustration.

Now, this being written and done with, I do again agree with an inspection of a machine prior to buying, or it is up to you to take a risk. 3500$ for an IJ seems to be the going rate anyhow. Where I was stunned, as stated by many others, was your 800$ bill for repair (assuming I read correctly). 2 items of advice I can give you here:

1-  for ANY repairs, post asking for help first. Pins Only and Hardkor are also in Calgary (props to the Calgary chapter!!!) and I am sure are willing to help out in any way they can.

2- If you want to buy a machine that is not in Calgary but that is located near another member, and you want a second opinion, don't be afraid to post and ask. To be honest with you, that was the primary reason we started the group. JD, Splitskull and I used to drive around a lot and help new owners examine pins before buying. Ask Azatotht about his experiences!!!    So, don't be afraid to ask for advice or help... it's a SMALL community.

And as for the title, I just changed it to reflect the TRUE nature of what this thread should have been...  


Sparky


PS: I think we can all agree that enough has been said in this thread... now let's get all together, group hug, have a beer and play some games.

i'am always here to help.....drink beer

Calgary chapter sounds cool don't forget generalgman,pinsrfun,tester007,Aspman97



The tec that sinpin used will stand behind his work.He fixed my mm with a follow up to make sure.He also has helped me fix minor problems for no charge.A little high on price but worth every cent.no one works for free.try to get your washer machine fixed or your hot tub,its not cheap.or just fill your truck up with gas.  Well back to having a cold beer before my electricity gets cut     cheers

I don't post here very often but I will add my 2 cents. I am good friends with both Pins only and Hardkor. I have been collecting pins since 1989.  I personally know the service tech here in Calgary. He does this as his career and makes his living at it. (and is very good at it!)  As many of you all know, it can take many hours to go through a pin to make sure it is safe and working as designed.  He charges an hourly rate just like anyone else who repairs mechanical items.  I would think that majority of the $800.00 service bill would of been in the labour end. He also picked up this machine to take back to his shop to repair and then delivered it back.  
Did sinpin get ripped off? Absolutely not. When you are not in the position to fix your own machines, you must be prepared to pay someone for their time and expertise.  Sinpin could of easly asked any of us here in Calgary to give him a hand, but I believe he was anxious to get this pin up and running as quickly as possible so he decided to pursue someone who could get the job done quickly and effectively. His choice and I don't think he has a problem with that.  
Buying a pin sight unseen is always a risk. I try to only purchase my pins with ones that I have personally inspected, but there are times when the title you desire is not in your area so you must purchase elsewhere.
This is when you have to make sure to do your homework.  Like pinsonly said, one persons 8 is anothers 4.
Gary.