Starting to consider my next pin and am looking for something different in the collection.    Open to any/all manufacturers and models.

Thanks!

That's an open ended question In the WPC and Sys 11 era which I know better than older - some of them:

AFM, BSM, 24, WH2O, Shadow. MM (sort of), JM (sort of), NF
Radical, Diner, Whirlwind, Taxi,

I don't know older games so will leave them to those more knowledgeable. Also remember, people will even argue over what constitutes flow. For example JM is fast and flows until the glove grabs it.

My 0.02 of opinion
ME

If you want flow go for a LOTR....its on your wanted list, and has tons and tons of flow.

Like Hippo said, LOTR is all flow. T2 is also flow and on your wanted list. There are a ton of flow games. More specifics will help.

Duane

+1 on LOTR.

...and basically any Steve Ritchie Sys 11 game ( F14, T2, HS, etc... )

Cheers,
Steph

Quoted from TwilightZone

Like Hippo said, LOTR is all flow. T2 is also flow and on your wanted list. There are a ton of flow games. More specifics will help.

Duane

True about LOTR, but I'm having a difficult time finding it in decent condition (and somewhat close .. ie. not Red Deer, AB     And T2, I'm having second thoughts (too much sci-fi alongside the STTNG).

More specifics?  Well, I think AFM may be 'the perfect flow game' (right mix of humour, art, shots, challenge) but have a hard time justifying the price they're going for right now.  Even the fixer-uppers.  

Medvet's Whirlwind suggestion is a good one.

Thanks.

Quoted from dos.reboot

I think AFM may be 'the perfect flow game' (right mix of humour, art, shots, challenge) but have a hard time justifying the price they're going for right now.  

Then try RFM ...  ( Pinball 2000 )

Same concept, but MUCH MUCH funnier.

Perhaps a tad more simplistic (shot wise) than AFM,
but Pin2000 is pure eye candy and you can get a nice RFM
for half the price of an AFM  (...which frankly baffles the hell out of me ! )

Cheers,
Steph

LOTR
Demo Man
No Fear
Indiana Jones

Those 4, off the top of my head, have good flow.

I also like the ramp shot/flow on Hook (and I may just have one for sale....   )

Fish tales

High Speed, very good ball flow, very fast !

Can someone explain to me this concept of 'flow'? Is it basically every game not designed by Pat Lawlor?

I've owned a WH20, which people say is the king of flow, but I found it to be very stop and go (No Way Out, Bigfoot Bluff)

I'd recommend HighSpeed II - The Getaway.  For my money it's the best designed flow game I've ever played.  There are no dead spots.  the ball is always in motion.  And this high quality game is usually much cheaper then the others suggested.

Good hunting!

Quoted from jonny_eh

Can someone explain to me this concept of 'flow'? Is it basically every game not designed by Pat Lawlor?

I've owned a WH20, which people say is the king of flow, but I found it to be very stop and go (No Way Out, Bigfoot Bluff)

WH2O felt claustrophobic to me.  

I thought flow meant longer ball times and more immediate, direct ball returns to the flippers when you made good/clean shots.

Quoted from dos.reboot

WH2O felt claustrophobic to me.  

I thought flow meant longer ball times and more immediate, direct ball returns to the flippers when you made good/clean shots.

In that case, LOTR all the way!! You don't get longer ball times than that, and every proper shot comes back to the flippers.

Quoted from TGlover

I'd recommend HighSpeed II - The Getaway.  For my money it's the best designed flow game I've ever played.  There are no dead spots.  the ball is always in motion.  And this high quality game is usually much cheaper then the others suggested.

Good hunting!

Never really got into 'High Speed', but haven't played the sequel.  I'll have to find one to try out.

Thanks.

Demo Man, other than cryo-claw the ball never stops.

No Fear, continual ball movement and JM.

All can be found for around $1500.

Two words: Star Gazer.

Quoted from dos.reboot

WH2O felt claustrophobic to me.  

I thought flow meant longer ball times and more immediate, direct ball returns to the flippers when you made good/clean shots.

I wouldn't say flow necessarily means longer ball times. Both Shadow and ST:TNG are flow games, but ball times for us mere mortals can be very short. Makes it that much more rewarding when you do have a great game.

For my money, I would say Shadow is the best value out there in terms of flow. Fantastic game with enough depth to keep you coming back for more. An amazing and original pinball concept --- being able to control where the ball goes. It's simply awesome to hit all four ramps in a row and start Vengeance then do it again to start Super Vengeance. It's got a mini playfield, several MB modes, and a super challenging wizard mode. I know some don't care for the translite, doesn't effect me at all. I'm not looking up when I play and I actually think it looks pretty decent. Nice mix of Art Nouveau images and the main character doesn't even look like Alec Baldwin.

ST:TNG is another great game for the money. Fantastic flow, unforgiving game play, awesome start to MB....yada yada.

I also love NF. I have one and it's another fantastic buy for the money. It seems to be a love it or hate it game for folks. I'm on the love it side and the only way mine is leaving is if a better one replaces it. Ball times can be on the longer side with this one depending on how fast it plays.

Duane

AFM is definitely the best flow game i owned, STTNG flows very well too.

Flow games.

Demoman is the king of flow games, only game I know where you can keep the ball going forever espically if you have the Cyro-Claw disabled.  A feature that I'm really starting the like personally.  

Getaway is another good one.

No Fear

Shadow, I guess so, the ramps to flow quite nicely, but the lock shot, saucer holes and mini playfield dampen the flow a bit.  

Whitewater, yes and no, it's pretty good flow, but it deos have some stop and go, but the variety of shots is unmatched.

I don't know why people think LOTR is a flow game?  I really wouldn't consider it flowing at all, the only shots that flow well are the left and right ramps.  The inner loop and right loop technically end up back at the flippers but not for any kind of meaningful second shot, and most times I find on the inner loop the ball will end up in the pop bumpers.  Every other shot on LOTR is a stop shot.  Gimil stops the ball, the shire stops the ball, the ring stops the ball, POTD stops the ball, left loop stops the ball.  Not much flow compared to other games with really good flow.

Don't get me wrong LOTR is an amazing game, but I wouldn't say it has flow.  

I really think Demoman is the best example of a flow game, if you disable the cyro-claw you litteraly can keep the ball going from the left to right flipper (assuming you don't miss) forever with a nice variety of shots and very little pause from a ball getting to the next flipper.  

Quoted from Vengeance

Don't get me wrong LOTR is an amazing game, but I wouldn't say it has flow.

What you smoking??? LOTR is total flow. Flow doesn't mean there isn't the occasional stop in the action. With LOTR, when it does stop the ball, it feeds it back to the flippers. Most shots go back to the flippers:

Left VUK - to left flipper
Center VUK - to right flipper
Ramps
Centre shot to right flipper
Mini playifield - to left flipper

In terms of king of flow, I would say AFM or SM. Both games flow so smoothly. You can keep the ball going from ramp to ramp to ramp.

Duane

I guess it's a matter of opinion on what flow is, flow to me is the ball in continuous movment without stoping, not just that everything gets fed back to the flipper.  

Quoted from Vengeance

I guess it's a matter of opinion on what flow is, flow to me is the ball in continuous movment without stoping, not just that everything gets fed back to the flipper.  

That would be my idea of flow, too - continuous movement where the ball is "flowing".   To me No Fear is awesome & low priced - but I guess has several issues to look out for (no pops either to ruin the flow).   Anyone have a No Fear (its on the wife's list - so might be entertained, er, um, what am I smoking, forget that no job security means no pins for the time being.....

Quoted from Tuborg

   Anyone have a No Fear

I have a No Fear and love it!

Quoted from Vengeance

I guess it's a matter of opinion on what flow is, flow to me is the ball in continuous movment without stoping, not just that everything gets fed back to the flipper.  

In that case, there are NO flow games. Every game stops the ball at some point:

NF - skull, left side shot, centre shot
AFM - sink hole off to the right
T2 - loading the gun, hitting the skull, right rear saucer
WH2O - kicking up the mini playfield, hitting big foot cave (?)
DM - the claw
JM - mini playfield

etc.

Quoted from Tuborg

That would be my idea of flow, too - continuous movement where the ball is "flowing".   To me No Fear is awesome & low priced - but I guess has several issues to look out for (no pops either to ruin the flow).   Anyone have a No Fear (its on the wife's list - so might be entertained, er, um, what am I smoking, forget that no job security means no pins for the time being.....

I also have one and love it. It's an awesome game.

Duane

Ok....maybe I've put too many posts on this thread, but here is a discussion on flow on rgp:

http://groups.google.com/group.....low#dab3abd8e24c4231

I tend to agree with one of the posters. A good flowing game is when one shot flows to the next so a skilled player can keep the ball moving and earn points.

Quoted from TwilightZone

DM - the claw

Disable the claw in the software, best thing I've ever done, never thought I would like Demoman with the claw disabled but when I got mine and found the claw was broken I was forced to disable it in the software.

I think the game plays better with the claw disabled and it makes for basically no stop at all in the action.  The ball pretty much never stops moving.  

Quoted from Vengeance

Flow games.

Demoman is the king of flow games, only game I know where you can keep the ball going forever espically if you have the Cyro-Claw disabled.  A feature that I'm really starting the like personally.  

When you disable the claw, how do you pick the "mode" you want to start? Does it just pick for you?

Quoted from Pharoah007

When you disable the claw, how do you pick the "mode" you want to start? Does it just pick for you?

That's why I like it, it picks the modes in a specific order, Freeze lock, Acmag, Capture Simon, Super jets, Cyro Prision break out.

The down fall of Demoman is from a points perspective there is no point in going for anything other then Freeze lock as that either starts your next multiball or queues it up.  But with the claw disabled you are forced to go threw each of the modes and work toward starting each of the multiballs via the standups as opposed to just dropping in the freeze lock every time you are up in the cyro claw.

Also as mentioned now the game basically never breaks flow, the only spots on the machine once the cyrow claw is disabled that stop the ball are the left loop and the computer shot and I really wouldn't consider the computer shot a flow breaker as it comes out of that wirefrom pretty soon after you shoot it in the computer, so really on the left loop.  

I find it has made the game that much better as I'm forced to play all the claw modes, which makes the game more difficult as you can't just plow threw the multiballs over and over again you are foreced to start them the proper which which is actually quite difficult.  You end up playing Demolition Time more often as well, which is fine as I find it a really fun mode anyway.

Overall I've always like Demoman but I really enjoy playing mine now, I just need to find some time to shop it out and fix it up and I think it will be even better.  

You should listen to Steve Ritchie's interview on Topcast.  He explains what he thinks makes a good design and he's king of flow.  It's not just simply returning the ball to the flipper though.  LOTR does that well but feels clunky with a few shots.  The right orbit is the best example of clunky.  Gandalf shot can be clunky too sometimes.  I've never experienced a single Lawlor game that I think has good flow.  His games are very much stop and go.  

Quoted from pinsRfun

I've never experienced a single Lawlor game that I think has good flow.  His games are very much stop and go.  

Try NGG. Excellent flow.

Duane

NGG is the one I've never played.  I'll like to try it some day!  it does have a good theme.  Too bad I don't know anyone in Calgary that has one.  Maybe pins_only has it in storage.  :-P

To me, T2's shots seem to be the most smooth. LOTR has similar shots (left/right orbit shots) but they don't feel nearly as smooth.

There's the feel which I agree with completely.  It's also complimented by the ruleset.  Take HS for instance, the left/right orbit shot, you repeat that to increase highway values.  Shots get faster and faster and adrenaline gets higher and higher.  If you shoot the left orbit, you have the option to use the upper right flipper to hit the ramp or let it drop to the lower right flipper to shoot the left orbit again.  No time to stop and think, it's go go go.  Likewise in STTNG, hit the left orbit to increase warp, option to use the upper right flipper for the delta ramp to increase warp there or drop to lower right flipper to hit the left orbit again.  Either choice returns to lower right flipper.  If there was no progression or point in making these shots, it'll be no fun.

In a Lawlor game, take TAF or TZ, you have the ramp shots that return the ball back to the flipper.  They either relight another shot or it's a counter to some bonus.  Not as satisfying cuz the speed of the ball doesn't really increase.  I kinda get bored making those shots over and over.

WH2O has nice flow shots.  Not necessarily a great flow game.  It does feel that the ball takes too long to return to he flipper sometimes.  Insanity falls shot is one.  It's good flow as in not clunky but not a speedy game to the level of a Ritchie game.

Did I say I like Ritchie games?  

Sam