Got an issue with my Eight Ball Deluxe. When I start a new game the 2 Ball drop target drops immediately, and the outhole kicker does not eject the ball to the plunger lane. When I do a solenoid test I noticed that some solenoids fire twice in a row. I've swapped out driver boards with no success.

Any ideas?

Thanks

Sounds like the problem is in the MPU board. Some chip-oriented people here might help.

whoa something really strange now.........during simulated game play, (using my fingers to activate solenoid switches), when I activate a pop bumper switch, a sling shot solenoid fires!! WTF!!

OK from what I can gather so far, when some solenoids are supposed to fire the signal goes to a different solenoid all together. ie when the outhole kicker is supposed to release the ball for play, the "2 Ball" drop target drops instead. This is happening with almost all the solenoids on the playfield.

Sounds like the exact same thing I went through with my EBD a couple of months ago.  If the #2 target is sropping instead of the outhole kicker, that is classic solenoid expander board issue.   From the schematics, you will see that the expander board allows three of the drivers to do double-duty.  The outhole and target #1 share a transistor as do the 4-target reset and the #2 target and the 7-target reset and the saucer.

My guess is that the relay on the expander board is not functioning properly, and instead of the relay pulling in and firing the outhole kicker, the other coil is firing.  The thing that is strange however, is that if the relay wasn't working properly, then your #1 target should drop instead of your outhole kicker.  Your #2 target is probably falling because when the machine attempts to reset the 4-target bank at the start of each ball, the relay doesn't pull in and the #2 target falls instead.  

When you perform the solenoid test, have you written down the actual coils that fire ?  Have you run the test with the playfield up to see if the relay on the expander board is pulling in at the end of the test cycle ?  

If it is the relay, it could be as simple as the lamp that is attached to the expander board has burnt out.  It should come on as the relay pulls in.  If the lamp is good but is still not coming on, it could be a tarnsistor on the lamp board that drives the expander board lamp.  I believe it is Q54, but have a look at the schematics to confirm.

I'd be surprised if it is not one of these simple fixes.    

** I just read your update.  Make a list to ensure that it is ALL of the coils acting whacky and not just the 6 coils associated with the expander board.  Use your manual that lists the order the coils should fire in and write down the order.  If more coils are involved that just the 6 that run off the expander board, then it likely is an MPU / power issue.

Maybe a connector on backwards?

Are you sure that the EPROMs installed on your MPU are actually for an EBD ?
If not, it could result in what you are seeing - incorrect switch matrix and solenoid drive...

Cheers,
- Sylvain.

Thanks guys! I guess I need to get busy! I think I'm gonna like it here  

So I checked the solenoid expander and it seems to be functioning ok. To be sure I checked the transistor on the lamp driver and it's fine too. Another issue that cropped up is a switch issue. Some rollovers, one drop target, and the playfield tilt switch, are not registering during my swithch test mode. They are all together on the "A4J2-14" designation on the MPU board. Would this possibly be related? MPU issue?

Check the pins in J4 on the MPU - also check the pin in J2-14.
If one or more are corroded or broken, could lead to funky behavior.

Good luck !
- Sylvain.

Quoted from sylvain

Check the pins in J4 on the MPU - also check the pin in J2-14.
If one or more are corroded or broken, could lead to funky behavior.

Good luck !
- Sylvain.

Thanks Sylvain. I'll give it a try tonight

Pete

OK, all swithches are functioning now. It was a broken common wire on one of the thumper bumpers. I checked all the pins on the MPU board and they seem fine. Im still having the strange solenoid problem though. Things like the lower right slingshot activating the match knocker in the cabinet! I'm lost.

Quoted from shock_me

OK, all swithches are functioning now. It was a broken common wire on one of the thumper bumpers. I checked all the pins on the MPU board and they seem fine. Im still having the strange solenoid problem though. Things like the lower right slingshot activating the match knocker in the cabinet! I'm lost.

With many of the wrong coils firing, it's really sounding like a PIA problem on the MPU, but since Ballyboy did the work, it seems hard to believe that is the problem.   I had trouble with my EBD target bank.  That stupid 7-target bank has the 43 volt wire going from coil to coil in a very tight space.  Have a really good look to ensure that the 43 volt wire isn't grounding out against any metal.  Even if you don't see anything, unplug the wiring harness leading to the target bank.  Reboot and do the voil test.  See if that fixes the problem.

mrniceguy,

thanks for the input. I forgot how much "fun" it is to troubleshoot these things  . I'll try out your suggestions today when I get a chance. Sounds definitely like one of those little "wire issues". For the record the MPU was serviced by John's Jukes in B.C., Not Ballyboy. Although I'm sure he does some fine work

cheers,
Pete

Quoted from shock_me

mrniceguy,

thanks for the input. I forgot how much "fun" it is to troubleshoot these things  . I'll try out your suggestions today when I get a chance. Sounds definitely like one of those little "wire issues". For the record the MPU was serviced by John's Jukes in B.C., Not Ballyboy. Although I'm sure he does some fine work

cheers,
Pete

Oh man...old age is creeping up on me. I've been posting on another thread about a 6M$M with issues and that board was done by Ballyboy.   As long as John does good work,  I guess the likelihood of it being an MPU issue is diminished, but certainly isn't out of the question.  Things happen in transit and boards often behave differently in a machine than they do on a bench, especially when any voltages, etc are out of spec.  

Try looking for a shorted wire on the target bank, then if you have the means, swap out the Solenoid Driver Board with another one.  A decoder chip on the board may be bad so a swap might flush this out.  Also inspect the J4 connector on the Solenoid Driver Board ( SDB ), especially pins 3 - 7.

If none of this works, turn your attention to the MPU.

For sure the issue is hovering around the all the coils related to the solenoid expander. I've swapped out driver boards, changed the expander board, (the second expander board actually buzzes quite loudly when it pulls in. Don't know if that is a problem or not cuz the original expander doesn't really sound like much at all. I'm actually starting to think that the original expander board is faulty, but the second unit still doesn't solve anything..........

Hi,
Is it possible you have bad U1 or U2 on solenoid driver board?

It's happend to me yet.

A+

Should my solenoid expander be buzzing, or clicking when it's pulling in? I just saw a video on youtube, and his is definitely "clicking". Mine is buzzing.

Quoted from shock_me

For sure the issue is hovering around the all the coils related to the solenoid expander. I've swapped out driver boards, changed the expander board, (the second expander board actually buzzes quite loudly when it pulls in. Don't know if that is a problem or not cuz the original expander doesn't really sound like much at all. I'm actually starting to think that the original expander board is faulty, but the second unit still doesn't solve anything..........

Was it the main solenoid board you swapped out or only the expander board ?  When I mentioned checking J4 pins 3-7, that was of course referring to the main solenoid board.

To answer your question about the relay buzzing, no, it is not normal.  

This might actually be good news because the buzz may be suggesting that your U10 and/or U11 on the MPU are not getting good ground and as a result, your relay is not getting the power it needs.  If you are willing to get "down and dirty", run a wire from the ground of U10 to another good ground on the board.  Do the same for U11.  This might seem like a shot in the dark, but you're pretty much at that point by now anyway, I figure.

  

yeah i think you're onto something now. it seems like the solenoid expander, (under the playfield), is not getting enough juice somehow. it's just barely buzzing when i'm running the lamp test mode. also in lamp test mode the flashing playfield lights are extremely dim. guess it's time to look at U10 an U11.........not my comfort zone but what the hey.
BTW, to answer your first question I swapped out both the SDB and the Expander board.

Thanks for sticking with me on this, I appreciate it man.

Pete

ok now for the dumb questions.......i see on my MPU diagram which chip legs on the U10 and U11 are negative, but how do I know on the board which ones they are? and where should i ground them to?

me again!
Any idea what would cause the playfield lights to be very dim? The GI lights are fine, but when I'm in lamp test mode the blinking feature lights are not very bright at all. Also the solenoid expander is buzzing during this test, not clicking.

Thanks

Quoted from shock_me

me again!
Any idea what would cause the playfield lights to be very dim? The GI lights are fine, but when I'm in lamp test mode the blinking feature lights are not very bright at all. Also the solenoid expander is buzzing during this test, not clicking.

Thanks

I'll have a look at my schematics to help answer your U10 / U11 chip question.  As for the dim feature lamps, check to see if your F2 is a 10 A or 20 A fuse.  

Quoted from mrniceguy

I'll have a look at my schematics to help answer your U10 / U11 chip question.  As for the dim feature lamps, check to see if your F2 is a 10 A or 20 A fuse.  

Thanks. I'll have a look when I get home tonight.

Joy! It's fixed. The culprits were Q13 and Q14 transistors on the SDB.
Thanks for all the suggestions.

I'm glad you fixed the problem, but can someone out there explain to me how a bad Q13 / Q14 would fire the wrong coil ?   I can't begin to understand it.  If it makes sense, I would have certainly suggested SCR replacement right at the start !

Quoted from mrniceguy

I'm glad you fixed the problem, but can someone out there explain to me how a bad Q13 / Q14 would fire the wrong coil ?   I can't begin to understand it.  If it makes sense, I would have certainly suggested SCR replacement right at the start !

i'm confused a bit on this too mrniceguy. In the end I was looking at multiple areas for a possible cause for the problem. The expander board seemed ok, but was buzzing during lamp test mode. I resoldered all the pins on the SEB, and checked the harness plug for problems. Still buzzed. I then swapped out the power supply/rectifier board with a spare I had, and then the buzzing turned into the healthy "clicking" I was looking for. Still did not fix the misfiring of coils during game play or solenoid test mode. Swapped out the lamp driver, to eliminate the possibility of the 555 lamp next to the SEB from malfunctioning, but still no joy. I was wondering about a possible bad diode on one of the coils associated with the solenoid expander, when I decided to just replace the Q13, and Q14 transistors on the SDB. This finally fixed it.......but I'm not sure how. To be honest, I unscientifically replaced U10 and U11 at the same time as the transistor swap, so maybe my problem was there?

Whatever it was it's gone.......for now.