See that's the difference, I don't see the downgrades as that big a deal.
Are the plastic aprons and pegs cheaper and a little harder to work with, yes. does it affect playability of the machine, nope.
Will this new lockdown bar maybe be a little more annoying to get on or off, sure. But it's not going to affect the way the game plays, No.
As long as the game is fun and enjoyable to play, who cares. As soon as the downgrades being to affect playability I'll be the first on one the bandwagon saying that Stern is taking these cost cutting measures too far.
Otherwise just play the games and enjoy them, end of the day it's better then nothing which is what the alternative is currently.
or if you think Stern is so cheap, here is your alternative game choice....
It's not like you own one or plan on buying one and are going to have to deal with said cost cutting measures, your just bitching to hear yourself b****.
Who says I'm not going to buy one? Your just arguing for the sake of trying to win an argument. I have owned 10 pins so far, and probably will own a Stern sooner than later. I almost pulled the trigger on a NIB LOTR a couple months back, and may buy a TSPP as well
I'm not a hater, just stating that I don't like the idea of a cheapened product.
If I could buy a Ferrari with heated leather seats or with formed plastic seats, for the same price? Which would I want?
=-= PINS: Swords of Fury, Fish Tales, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Skateball =-=
I would really rather not, get all hyped up about this. I like to keep things positive, I just stated my opinion that I don't like the "idea" of a cheapened product, even if it does make the best business sense.
I am a lover not a hater, and just love pinball in general. I eat, sleep and breathe it.
=-= PINS: Swords of Fury, Fish Tales, Bram Stoker's Dracula, Skateball =-=
I don't see these downgrades being a big deal either but can't help but think that BBH, IM, and Avatar are very similar in design/toys compared to a jam-packed Spider-man or even POTC. That's not to say that more is necessarily better but it saddens me a bit to think that Stern will never create pins with as much complexity ... ever. I understand the reasoning behind the cut-backs but it just seems the there's still a widespread appreciation for SM. If I had the money to spare, I'd buy a NI ... HUO SM.
Will these last three pins enjoy the same longevity?
http://www.pinballowners.com/ottogd Pins: Congo - High Speed - Cue Ball Wizard - Spirit - Eye of the Tiger - Quintette - Spectrum - Guys Dolls - Catacomb - Road Kings - Police Force - Cyclone - TX-Sector Vids: Asteroids - Centipede - Galaga - Joust - Ms Pacman - Super Sprint - Atari Cocktail (60-in-1) - Vectrex EM shooter: Midway Gang Busters EM Pitch & Bat: Upper Deck Slot: IGT 'M' Progressive ('86)
I disagree that the cutbacks don't effect gameplay. I have many balls bounce off the plastic apron and back into play. I'm not complaining but what if that happened in a tourny and you were on the wrong end of that! You have to look at the machine as a package. if I rapped my knuckles every time I take the lockdown bar off it would piss me off. I worked on my IM with the prop rods and had to put the sliders on since you cannot work on the back of the playfield with out putting it up or getting someone to hold the front of the playfield. Then there is the argument of the price vs cutbacks. I don't see the value of buying a NIB now and spending $300-$500 to get the machine up to snuff. Some people are willing to do this but I don't see me doing it. Now if Stern lowered the price and I had an option to buy the upgrades later on then were talking. It's like paying BMW prices and getting Hyundai quality and options. I think the solution is to lower prices so the opertor will make more(thus buying more) and the more home users can afford to buy them.
I disagree that the cutbacks don't effect gameplay. I have many balls bounce off the plastic apron and back into play. I'm not complaining but what if that happened in a tourny and you were on the wrong end of that! You have to look at the machine as a package. if I rapped my knuckles every time I take the lockdown bar off it would piss me off. I worked on my IM with the prop rods and had to put the sliders on since you cannot work on the back of the playfield with out putting it up or getting someone to hold the front of the playfield. Then there is the argument of the price vs cutbacks. I don't see the value of buying a NIB now and spending $300-$500 to get the machine up to snuff. Some people are willing to do this but I don't see me doing it. Now if Stern lowered the price and I had an option to buy the upgrades later on then were talking. It's like paying BMW prices and getting Hyundai quality and options. I think the solution is to lower prices so the opertor will make more(thus buying more) and the more home users can afford to buy them.
Just my .02
Lance
In terms of bounce backs I can't say that it happens enough on my IM that I would consider it a problem. Hell I can't personally think of a time that it has actually happened or ever felt like it happens more then it happens on a machine with an Iron apron. As far as a tournament is concerned, bounce backs are an acceptable part of pinball and even covered in most rule sheets, as long as the player is not the one creating the bounce back it's deemed acceptable.
As for the argument of quality going down and price staying the same as far as I'm concerned if this is what Stern needs to do to keep the company going, then do it. Those clasps have existed and worked just fine for years and years in arcade machines to hold down the control panel and worked just fine. I'm not a fan of the props but it hasn't hindered me in any of the repairs I've had to do, 9 time out of 10 I usually flip the playfield up anyway to work on the machine.
Iron man is classic, has been around for decades and had a very good resurgence in the latest movies.
Avatar is a fad, the 3d affects are cool but the movie is mediocre at best, it will be gone and forgotten in the next 10 years guaranteed.
Strong words my friend, especially when the pin is not out on the market yet. It may be a classic regarless of the title. Look at TZ I don't see it much on TV, it too came and is now gone but the value of the theme stayed because it is fun to play. Same thing with POC.....just another movie kept alive by a sequel but a fun pin to play.
I find that the only thing we have now is pins based on movies that made it big not much imagination left in the industry except for custom pins made from old title. That is why I am happy about the new Spanish manufacturer, who knows this may bring back some players etc.
It's like paying BMW prices and getting Hyundai quality and options. I think the solution is to lower prices so the opertor will make more(thus buying more) and the more home users can afford to buy them.
Just my .02
Lance
Well said, Lance. I agree. They keep lowering the quality and increasing the price. People are going to get pissed. Especially the operators.
Removing the slider rail and now the lock down bar is just stupid in my opinion. These are items that will impact the operator. It's a pain in the a** to work with those damn pegs. And the new lock down bar looks alot easier to pry open. It's certainly not as secure as the old system.
I like your idea of lowering the price and offering options the home user could install. This makes alot more sense than constantly reducing the quality AND increasing the price!
Iron man is classic, has been around for decades and had a very good resurgence in the latest movies.
Avatar is a fad, the 3d affects are cool but the movie is mediocre at best, it will be gone and forgotten in the next 10 years guaranteed.
So we agree on IM? You said the price would fall. I disagree. You state "Iron man is classic, has been around for decades and had a very good resurgence in the latest movies." Seems to me, we are agreeing the theme is killer and price will reflect that.
Going to stay neutral on Avatar until I play it. I thought the movie was decent and I think the effects will be impressive for some time to come. I don't see the theme as being weak -- on the scale of Shadow, for example. I think it will come down to game play.
Strong words my friend, especially when the pin is not out on the market yet. It may be a classic regarless of the title. Look at TZ I don't see it much on TV, it too came and is now gone but the value of the theme stayed because it is fun to play.
Twilight Zone was a groundbreaking TV series that still has references in our culture today.
Avatar is meh. The story is generic and predictable. If it wasn't for the special effects it would have done the same as all other bland hollywood films.
So we agree on IM? You said the price would fall. I disagree. You state "Iron man is classic, has been around for decades and had a very good resurgence in the latest movies." Seems to me, we are agreeing the theme is killer and price will reflect that.
No I didn't the question was "will these new Sterns still have the same Longevity" and my response was "I think IM will"
So yes we agree you just can't read
Quoted Text
Going to stay neutral on Avatar until I play it. I thought the movie was decent and I think the effects will be impressive for some time to come. I don't see the theme as being weak -- on the scale of Shadow, for example. I think it will come down to game play.
Duane
I'm trying to stay objective on avatar but the layout just looks lame and uninspired. I would liken it to Shadow for anything but theme. Shadow has a crap theme but some of the best and unique gameplay in pinball.
I don't think avatar will be able to hold a candle to Shadow. I'm usually not one to jump on the "this game is going to suck" bandwagon before I even get a chance to play the game, but I don't see anything the game has to offer that makes me think it will be fun to play.
Twilight Zone was a groundbreaking TV series that still has references in our culture today.
Avatar is meh. The story is generic and predictable. If it wasn't for the special effects it would have done the same as all other bland hollywood films.
The only nod I'll give avatar is for coming up with "unobtanium" now that's just classic,
Since discussing movies/TV that had some major cultural impact (Star Wars, Jaws, Wizard of Oz....) Stern should have approached FORD and made a Mustang/Bullit pinball. Maybe Stern could have pre-sold one to every dealer? Instant advertising for both Ford and Stern.
No I didn't the question was "will these new Sterns still have the same Longevity" and my response was "I think IM will"
So yes we agree you just can't read
! You are right! My bad.
You make a compelling agruement against Avatar. I agree the layout doesn't look inspiring. That said, I actually liked BBH. BBH layout looks lame, but I found it a pretty fun pin to play. Would I own one? Hell, no. Would I drop a buck or two if I saw it? You bet! I'll wait til I get a chance to play Avatar before I say it's a B title.
You make a compelling agruement against Avatar. I agree the layout doesn't look inspiring. That said, I actually liked BBH. BBH layout looks lame, but I found it a pretty fun pin to play. Would I own one? Hell, no. Would I drop a buck or two if I saw it? You bet! I'll wait til I get a chance to play Avatar before I say it's a B title.
Duane
BBH was quite the surprise but it has things going for it that avatar doesn't. The integration of the deer (when working properly) is a great element. Fun to interact with and a good little toy. I also really like the uniqueness of the ELK diverter on the right hand side, it was a well thought out item and works well and adds some uniqueness.
Avatar has that big metal dude in the right hand side that offers no player interaction other then falling over and the WPT tour ace in the hole metal grab bars. Just guessing without playing the game, I think avatar is going to be the next IJ4.
Twilight Zone was a groundbreaking TV series that still has references in our culture today.
Avatar is meh. The story is generic and predictable. If it wasn't for the special effects it would have done the same as all other bland hollywood films.
TZ did not become a classic because of the theme but because it is fun to play. Granted the theme does help in getting your attention etc. but had this game been boring it would not have made it. You can dazzle with lights and art work if the play is boring then you lost.
I don't mind debating a bit but we already have critics on a game that is not even out and that makes me laugh. I don't mind a bit of expectation based on what the playfield show but stating that the game will be lame is a bit too soon.
TZ did not become a classic because of the theme but because it is fun to play. Granted the theme does help in getting your attention etc. but had this game been boring it would not have made it. You can dazzle with lights and art work if the play is boring then you lost.
I don't mind debating a bit but we already have critics on a game that is not even out and that makes me laugh. I don't mind a bit of expectation based on what the playfield show but stating that the game will be lame is a bit too soon.
tks
I'm usually right there with you, I usually don't like the bash a game before I ever play it and I'm usually on your side of the fence giving people crap for crapping on a game they haven't even played yet, so I 100% understand where your coming from.
I just don't see anything on this PF that makes me think, "oh that looks interesting". First time in recent memory that I've looked at a machine and thought, wow there is really nothing new or original to this game. There is nothing on Avatar that makes me want to try it to see what it's about.
IM had the monger BBH had the deer 24 had the safehouse CSI had the skull lock and centrifuge IJ4 had the arc Shrek/FG had the mini PF TDK had the crane NBA had the basket WOF had the wheel and a unique layout
Nothing on avatar makes me think, hmmmm, I wonder what that is, I'm interested to try that out.
I started watching Avatar last night... stopped about halfway. Watched TV instead. After over 1 hour of nothing but visual effects and no frickin story development, I tuned out.
I mean come on... after 80 minutes, all I got was that a company wants this Unobtainium (yet they do obtain it... ) and use two tactics to get it. Bullying their way in and using remote-controlled clones. One guy starts to like the alien race.
There. 80 minutes resumed in 30 words. Brilliant. Give these idiots some Oscars.
And I thought the Star wars movies were quite empty story-wise. This takes the cake. No offense, but the new Star Trek movie out last year was WAY better than this. At least it had a decent story.
Man... it just proves that people go for eye-candy today. Nevermind a good story.
I started watching Avatar last night... stopped about halfway. Watched TV instead. After over 1 hour of nothing but visual effects and no frickin story development, I tuned out.
I mean come on... after 80 minutes, all I got was that a company wants this Unobtainium (yet they do obtain it... ) and use two tactics to get it. Bullying their way in and using remote-controlled clones. One guy starts to like the alien race.
There. 80 minutes resumed in 30 words. Brilliant. Give these idiots some Oscars.
And I thought the Star wars movies were quite empty story-wise. This takes the cake. No offense, but the new Star Trek movie out last year was WAY better than this. At least it had a decent story.
Man... it just proves that people go for eye-candy today. Nevermind a good story.
Avatar HAS to be seen in 3d.
No one argues that the story in any good, hell it's just Pocahontas
2D or 3D... it's still eye-candy with no substance. It's like I said, no one cares about a story anymore. I was stunned that this this was even nominated for best fim. Best visual effects? Sure, absolutely. Bu no way for best film...
At least Cameron's other huge hit Titanic had the historical aspect and somewhat of a story behind it...
It's like I said, no one cares about a story anymore. I was stunned that this this was even nominated for best fim. Best visual effects? Sure, absolutely. Bu no way for best film...
Award shows are a joke any way, just a big circle jerk with a bunch of self proclaimed "experts" patting each other on the back from a job well done, who really cares what the academy thinks.
2D or 3D... it's still eye-candy with no substance. It's like I said, no one cares about a story anymore. I was stunned that this this was even nominated for best fim. Best visual effects? Sure, absolutely. Bu no way for best film...
I still maintain that Avatar was a 3D tech demo, nothing more.
I'm still looking forward to trying the pin though, I'm just thankful there's still a company out there putting them out. Yes, the cheapening of the manufacturing process has me a little discouraged, but like Adam pointed out.. nothing affecting gameplay really. Games are back to relying on design, and not flashy toys.. that's a step in the right direction if you ask me!
The pegs don't bother me much.. though I've never experienced them myself, i always work on the pf at 90 degrees so no biggie for me.
As far as "pins being a waste of money at this point", I've always thought a NIB pin was a waste of dough regardless of the title.. I just can't drop $2k to be the first to open the box. That being said, I can totally respect someone else' opinion on that. It's just not for me.
Own Magic, Star Gazer, Batman Forever, STTNG, Mystery Castle (project)
Gone Fairy, Secret Service, Meteor x3, Title Fight, Eight Ball Deluxe, Bone Busters Inc., Seawitch, Starship Troopers, Strange Science, Arena, Hook, Pin*Bot x2, Time Warp, Motordome, Robocop, Black hole, Jurassic Park , Wipe-Out, Pinball Pro: Challenger I, Swords of Fury, Stargate, Party Zone
While us old farts might be dismissive of Avatar, we need to realize that it is enormous. It's huge, gigantic, and a game changer. It has the potential to be the next Star Wars in terms of franchise strength over time. Whether that translates into pin sales, I'm skeptical. Avatar could be a flash in the pan, but so far it doesn't look that way. Sure, it did gangbusters in theatres but that's because it was 3D right? Well, it comes out on DVD/Bluray and even though it was 2D it breaks sales records, in a time when disc sales are going down the tubes.
Have
Want
-The Getaway: High Speed II!! -Spider-Man -F-14 Tomcat -Guns N' Roses -Lord of the Rings -Twilight Zone
-Medieval Madness! -Indiana Jones (Williams) -Star Trek: The Next Generation -Champion Pub -Terminator 3 -Congo -Johnny Mnemonic -Tales of the Arabian Nights
I still maintain that Avatar was a 3D tech demo, nothing more.
I'm still looking forward to trying the pin though, I'm just thankful there's still a company out there putting them out. Yes, the cheapening of the manufacturing process has me a little discouraged, but like Adam pointed out.. nothing affecting gameplay really. Games are back to relying on design, and not flashy toys.. that's a step in the right direction if you ask me!
The pegs don't bother me much.. though I've never experienced them myself, i always work on the pf at 90 degrees so no biggie for me.
As far as "pins being a waste of money at this point", I've always thought a NIB pin was a waste of dough regardless of the title.. I just can't drop $2k to be the first to open the box. That being said, I can totally respect someone else' opinion on that. It's just not for me.
It's like getting a new car. Pinnacle moment to be the first one to play a game on it. I know it cost more to do it but if the game is a keeper then why worry about the extra money. Warrenty has something to do with it also since most people do not know how to fix them.
The guys that seem to b**** the most about Stern quality are the ones that either A) don't own any or B) have never even bought a NIB game....
Yep. Your right we all make choices in life and on the first count that is totally a function of chioce. On point "B)" unfortunately Williams isn't building any NIB games so other than paying a ridiculously inflated price for a Williams still in it's cardboard encasement, NIB hasn't presented itself as a viaible option to me in the last 10 years.
It isn't a function of not willing to pay the money for a pin as evidenced by what I have sunk into pins; it's not willing to pay the money for those pins. The point is it's a choice and given the choice I choose not to. Unfortunately Stern is not making a case so far to reverse this decision IMHO based on their direction.
Yep. Your right we all make choices in life and on the first count that is totally a function of chioce. On point "B)" unfortunately Williams isn't building any NIB games so other than paying a ridiculously inflated price for a Williams still in it's cardboard encasement, NIB hasn't presented itself as a viaible option to me in the last 10 years.
It isn't a function of not willing to pay the money for a pin as evidenced by what I have sunk into pins; it's not willing to pay the money for those pins. The point is it's a choice and given the choice I choose not to. Unfortunately Stern is not making a case so far to reverse this decision IMHO based on their direction.
So your saying, you're not planning on buying a Stern and you currently don't own any Stern's but you still feel the need to b**** about Stern quality?
So like I said before, you're just bitching to hear your self b**** is that it?
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Also, Glenn has a GnR which indirectly IS a Stern. Perhaps if some of their better titles used opto swithes you would be more impressed, Glenn.
I agree that it is unfortunate that they are thinning down content on the Stern machines but it is clearly evident that higher priced titles will not sustain a pinball factory at the realistic volumes they will sell. Especially so when the ROI for operators is poor and home users are becoming a big chunk of the clientele.
They need to sell a certain number of units to make a machine viable to develope, and higher prices = lower volume. Also, is is more profitable to use generic parts vs. game specific. I wish this was not the case, but the alternative is NO pinball manufacturer. The market is too fragile to take greater risks.Perhaps when the economy is booming for a while that trend will reverse.
I am not an economist (McMean please chime in if you read this), but perhaps someone can articulate better how manufacturers optimize profits. Something like, "profit maximization is achieved when price=marginal cost". Learned that in high school.
So your saying, you're not planning on buying a Stern and you currently don't own any Stern's but you still feel the need to b**** about Stern quality?
So like I said before, you're just bitching to hear your self b**** is that it?
It's not just quality. It's many of their production values. Take a look at a game like MM, Williams was able to create an atmosphere in the game and had the confidence in their talent to invest a lot into development, venture into the area of creating wacky themes with wacky calls and manage to carry it off. There is no question that Williams was slick, so slick they flaunted it in their games. They came up with a theme, developed the entire concept, integrated it extremely well utilizing professional talent, and boldly went about their business. It's what made them fail. They were ballsy and they gave a mess. I used MM for an example but there are numerous other ones that could be used.
I am tired of hearing this accepting attitude where I hear "The voice calls blow" and the Photoshop art looks like a pile of mess but it has good this or that. WTF? Does this not detract from the game anymore in this current one horse town environment? If your going to defend a game then it better be good, not riddled with negative commentary.
Yeah yeah DE - Stern got it, nothing new move along.... If someone wants this POS Stern and pay the going rate for a Gn'R PM me. Top side of $4K should do it or I will take a decent condition Williams IJ in exchange.
I think if WMS were still making pins today they'd be competing with Stern for licenses, and they'd have gone the same route for the artwork (Photoshop). That being said, WMS was smart.. they cut their losses (although they were posting hefty profits at the time, strange) and jumped ship to a more profitable market. They retired the undefeated champ while they still could, realizing that despite their efforts to come up with something fresh and new, Stern (Sega) was still posting similar (and just as shitty) profits.
Own Magic, Star Gazer, Batman Forever, STTNG, Mystery Castle (project)
Gone Fairy, Secret Service, Meteor x3, Title Fight, Eight Ball Deluxe, Bone Busters Inc., Seawitch, Starship Troopers, Strange Science, Arena, Hook, Pin*Bot x2, Time Warp, Motordome, Robocop, Black hole, Jurassic Park , Wipe-Out, Pinball Pro: Challenger I, Swords of Fury, Stargate, Party Zone
The guys that seem to b**** the most about Stern quality are the ones that either A) don't own any or B) have never even bought a NIB game....
I was basically saying what I feel about the direction i see Stern going, when you drop 4 or 5k for a product or toy it`s not 50 ,100$ or even 200$ that will stop you to buy it BUT , on the other side you wont buy it if it looks cheap ,my opinion for your info A) I own a few Stern and B) I also did bought a few NIB !
DO you ? and did you ?
that direction for Stern I think it`s sad because the home market is bigger than Stern is saying ( my assumption ) and i think they will reduce it or loose it by not keeping a minimum of quality
Games I am looking for Spiderman red TDK TSPP WCS Tales of the Arabians Nights MM POTC IM Scared Stiff
I was basically saying what I feel about the direction i see Stern going, when you drop 4 or 5k for a product or toy it`s not 50 ,100$ or even 200$ that will stop you to buy it BUT , on the other side you wont buy it if it looks cheap ,my opinion for your info A) I own a few Stern and B) I also did bought a few NIB !
DO you ? and did you ?
that direction for Stern I think it`s sad because the home market is bigger than Stern is saying ( my assumption ) and i think they will reduce it or loose it by not keeping a minimum of quality
My comment was more directed at Necro since I know he has no horse in this race, doesn't own any Stern's and doesn't plan to own any Sterns but just likes to hear himself b****. Of course if you are buying Sterns then you have every right to complain about the quality.
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