Quoted from Vengeance

But lets use this as an example, if Jim buys a machine off eBay and you let Jim know you want it and he says, "Look this is what I've got for a description, these are the pics I got, I've got no other information other then that it's up to you if you want it or not"  Then yes I 100% agree that it is now up to the buyer to take responsibilty and find out what is wrong with the machine before ponying up the money.  

This is exactly what Jim does... he passes on the same pics and info he receives from his seller.  He has never made any secret of that.  If you look at some of his posts he responds to many questions with "have not seen the machine personally" or "still waiting for it to arrive".  It's pretty clear that he buys a machine, lets people know that it's coming in and gives all the information that he has.

Jim is not in this to make money, he's not trying to screw anyone.  It's time to stop screwing him.

Mike.

Quoted from newf112

Jim is not in this to make money, he's not trying to screw anyone.  It's time to stop screwing him.

Mike.

Not sure where you might think I'm scrweing him as I've said a number of times I'm not passing judgment I have no idea the details of the transaction I only used him as a example.

But if that is the case then sinpin I'm with everyone else on this, if Jim told you that he had limited information and what you see if what you get then the rest is up to you to ensure you are getting what you want.  Sorry your first deal didn't go the way you wanted it to, but to be honest, your first deal is allways the worst deal, I'm sure every pinball collector will tell you that.  

Quoted from Vengeance

your first deal is allways the worst deal, I'm sure every pinball collector will tell you that.  

Hallelujah!    Someone's signature (Goodsicka? has it too I believe.   Something like "Happiness is selling your first pinball machine!".   My worst deal was my first pin - fortunately in much different $$$-bracket though!    

The good thing with sinpin is he definately "Went big!" - so although he's out maybe more money than he wanted - he has nice pins that are keepers.    

Quoted from Vengeance

If there is a problem I want the buyer to know so their are no suprises when they get the machine.

This is the wiseset philosophy to follow, should be a MAACA credo.

Any routed machines are the ones most likely to have issues, worn playfields, and electronics hacks (does a working machine with hacks qualify as 100%?).

A combination of what the buyer wants to hear, and what the seller is willing or able to tell often conspire to hide all the defects.

There are a few sellers/collectors/repairers that I have dealt with that actually undersell what they deliver, i.e. they put more back into the machines than they will ever get out in a sale, and I look forward to dealing with them again the most.

Too many quotes to try to reply but here is the just of it...

I waited weeks for Jim to finally get this machine.  When he got the machine he said he had someone look at it and confirmed with him as well that there was one minor hack but everything else looked good.  The machine was working 100% no errors and played great.

He then gave me all of a couple of days to make up my mind before he was going to go to the next person on his list of "waiting" for the machine.  This is another technique I question and no longer take at face value.

I asked questions about what other "service" issues may be needed.  None as far as he could tell.  

Now perhaps this post is just to state the obvious - don't buy from jvegas without seeing the machine and/or having a technician check it out first.  That's all I am saying here.  He has agreed to that himself in telling me that because of this he will "no longer sell to anyone without them seeing the machine first"

I believe that some of the machines he has are "fixer upers" and people expect that it will need some work.  But let's get real - I paid $3500 for an IJ machine - that should be market price for a machine that is in decent condition and not needing $700-$1000 of work - IMHO.  

Of course I am a newbie and I do not know much - yet.  Except that I was led to believe this machine was in much better condition (mechanically) than it was.  The idol not working and the drop targets not working were real wiring issues (wires were cut, soldered in the wrong places, etc, etc).  Although I know Jim could not have known the extent of the repairs required - I find it hard to believe that someone did not realize that the targets were pulsing and not resetting properly and that the idol was spinning around and not releasing/locking balls propertly.

Yes, it is buyer beware but I will leave it with this - I purchased a NIB Simpsons on ebay for $3600.  The machine arrived exactly as described.  New, in the box.  The shipping company must have hit it with a forklift as the plunger was broken as well as one of the plastics.  Seller says "no problem" and will be sending me the new parts I need or compensating me for the cost to replace.  Now isn't that the kind of service we would all like to expect??  Would have been easy for them to say "buyer beware" or "it was the shipping company" or "not our fault".  

This is probably why most people say "buy an older pin first, learn from it", as this comes in handy later on.  I think part of the issue here is expectations on sinpin's part, which is the same expectations I had a few years ago. Then when I spoke to other pinheads and found out just how much "attention" a pin needs, I understood for the first time I'll need to adapt and learn to maintain/repair.  It actually scared me off, only messing around with my friends Taxi took a little bit of the scary factor out, it's not that bad.  Now, I'm ready to take the plunge myself.

It's all dependant of what was part of the purchase agreement but as it is with the info I see, I don't detect any wrong doing here, except for an expensive lesson learned that was no fault of anyone but a lack perhaps of due dilligence.  Again, a little while ago with the perception I had, I would have done the same thing Sinpin, this isn't a shot at you!

But as it's been said before, for your first 2 machines sinpin, WOW!  Those are permanent keepers, you probably fall into the 1% category of first time buyers with those 2 very high quality pins.

I have bought pins from JVEGAS AND OTHERS PEOPLE,I always find problems that others overlook or will not find untill the game has been played by someone who knows the machine.I do a lot of tec work and pinballs are like cars,a test drive just won't tell you all the problems.Shipping a pin can cause more problems and a lot of sellers will not waranty a pin for that reason.It's a part of this hobby that you have to deal with as best you can,I don't mind these problems because it's the challenge of making them work perfect that is fun at times.New in the box pins might be best suited for you ,IJ was made in 1993 and will need work to keep it running.At 15 years old I know there will be some issues.Price always depends on condition and the price guide is as it says,is just a guide.
My 2 cents

Quoted from sinpin

I paid $3500 for an IJ machine - that should be market price for a machine that is in decent condition and not needing $700-$1000 of work - IMHO.  

Perhaps you should have investigated your tech's cost too...

You paid $800 for :

Bridge Rectifier  , Molex connectors X 4 ,
LED transmitter and receiver assembly , TIP transitor
some Flash lamps and some springs on drop targets,
and finally some fuses and new pinballs.

I'd be surprise if that even amounts to $50 in parts (if that...)

I know ALOT of guys who would be thirlled to do a few hours of work for $750 !

I don't think you would have posted this thread if the cost to fix the machine
had been $150...

I didn't see the pinball myself, but I would assume that it was in good cosmetic shape,
and that's most likely what determines the value of a pin.
(... a $3500 pin doesn't drop to $2500 because of a few fuses and transistors ... )

While I agree that it's frustrating to pay big bucks expecting a flawless machine,
(especially for people new to the hobby), I also think it's a little risky to buy
such an expensive (and complicated) pin as your first purchase
without knowing how to fix the inexpensive problems.

Still, I'm glad you got everything working and hope you enjoy your new game.

cheers,
Steph

Quoted from Tuborg

Someone's signature (Goodsicka? has it too I believe.   Something like "Happiness is selling your first pinball machine!".

That would be JD's old signature line, I believe. He's a very eloquent man, don't you know.
My motto has always been 'buy high, sell low'  ...
Which is why I endeavour to only buy items that I plan on keeping for a long time. That way when I do sell, I've usually forgotten how much I originally spent.

Adam

I think the basic flaw here with the Inspect it before you buy it is the ability to do that. I know of 3 IJ Pins here in Calgary and None of them are for sale. Are there others around, probably, but good luck finding them and if you do find one, is it for sale? And is it working 100% anyway? So, if you want an IJ, then you have to go elsewhere. I have bought machines from a lot of people and a Lot of places, including over seas, based on Pics descriptions and advice, I have received mostly good pins in reasonably accurate condition. Some better than I thought and some worse. The thing is, If I want a Road Show, I need to get one shipped, because I can't find a local one, so how do I inspect it? And if I find someone to inspect it, are their opinions the same as mine? One persons 8 out of 10 is Waaaaay different than another persons 8-10! So you need to take everything with some lower expectations, then you are usually pleasantly surprised. If they say 100% working, I would hope for 80% with nothing major.    Another thing to remember, and this for general information, Some people selling games think the game works 100%, but they don't know the lights in a Space Station all go Green, or in a Party Zone, or that Rudy's (Funhouse) Eyes are supposed to close or his Lower lip "quivers" when he snores. There are tons of little things that may not have worked for the seller and they never knew they were supposed to do that. When I got my TFTC after a few games we found out the ball drain was happening in the middle of hitting the right ramp, that is a tough shot and when the seller plays a few games and doesn't hit it, it works as far as he knows. Turns out a Diode was on backwards and caused the out hole switch to activate. Do I blame the seller, yup, do I care, Nope, was it interesting to figure out what happened and to learn why You Bet!

That all said, Sinpin, When you are in the middle of a game on your IJ and all of a sudden the game ads a player 2 or 3 or 4, or a few other strange things that you are not sure are wrong or don't believe that just happened, look at the diode on the bottom right under the Mini Playfield, It will be bent and shorted across itself and needing to be straightened out! Every IJ will do this eventually as the ball going in and out of the Mode Start Saucer can, and will, hit the damn thing and bend it. There, that just saved you Hours of Grief!!  

Dave (I am sure this Rambled on and makes no sense)

I have met/talked to JVegas (Jim) many times, as well as bought a machine from him, and he is a stand up guy. You even admit it yourself that he didn't actively try to deceive you, and that he was not fully at fault, but you still think you should come on here and bash the guy publicly. I don't know if you decided to do this publicly in an effort to try and force Jim to refund you some money. But when you start talking about how someone else who sold you something, and at no fault of his own, the item was damaged and decided to make it up to you out of their own pocket, it really seems like that is what you are doing by posting this.

The real person you should be mad at is the guy who charged you the $800 for fixing the machine. Man, you can buy older, fully working machines for what he charged just to fix your machine.

this isn't a first with jim and might not be the last.

  problem is jim buys without seeing the machines.  then turns around and keeps the great ones for himself and sells off the poor ones that come in.  how many keepers has it been now.  i don't blame him.   just wish he wouldn't say a machine has been completly looked over and checked out.  when it hasnt'.  that is what i think sinpin had the problem with.  also that he paid for a top dollar and thought he was getting a top machine.
   that is somewhat the same problem i had with my last deal with jim.  paid top dollar.  burnt the crap out of me and then he offer it to others for over a grand less.  still even that buyer pass it on, due to how much problems the machine had.  it wasn't worth it to him.  i could have bought one nib for the price it would cost on fixing and the price i was paying.
    then to be told you are no longer allowed to buy from him and have others hear that.  
        it just kind of sucks to have the feeling your the one getting blamed for doing something wrong, when all you were doing was taking someone at their word.
   just glad he didn't have worse problems.  the amount isn't that high in repairs (thank goodness).