Quoted from websherpa

I have been pushing this message (below) since I started here on MAACA (sorry I forget the RGP poster I am quoting):

"1) Emphasize the random, both in rules and layout.  [snip..]

2) Modes suck.  Rules can be complex, but they should be SHALLOW.

  [snip...]

Randomness is welcomed but not necessary (ie like the  menagerie ball in CV or the spinning disc from FireBall).
Modes are really no different than rules. just a different ruleset for a short period of time.

i agree that Modes need to be a little shallow but Pinball has always been about rules & skill.  EM's are real b**** to play because they expect you to hit the targets in sequence and have the skill to do so.  With the proliferation of DMD games started the excess Toy's and the notion that people want to be entertained just batting the ball around.

We need to go back to EM basics yet strike a balance with DMD animations.

As I stated before the game should have adaptive play and level up in scoring and complexity of rules as a result of the game identifying that the player is able to complete ever increasing complexity of tasks.

This way you appeal to the casual player and really truly challenge the expert.

Quoted from takochef

Pinball has always been about rules & skill.  EM's are real b**** to play because they expect you to hit the targets in sequence and have the skill to do so.  With the proliferation of DMD games started the excess Toy's and the notion that people want to be entertained just batting the ball around.

We need to go back to EM basics yet strike a balance with DMD animations.

The average person MIGHT, might just catch a DMD animation once in a while, but for the most part they keep their eyes on the playfield.

CV's menagerie is an example of "annoyingly random for little purpose" or "A for effort, but just a bad idea", whereas Fireball and Whirlwind spinning plattesr add an intersting element of "challenge", not necessarily the kind of "randomness" I was referring to.

What I am referring to is the possibilty of having a really good game without necessarily having to "learn" a sequence of shots to complete.  

I would agree that there is emphasis on "skill" in EMs (and any flipper game).  Although the possibility of "nudging" and "skillful plunger play" always existed, it was the introduction of flippers that really made the pinball popluar because you could now really have the possibility of influencing the outcome of the "game".  However with pop bumpers and slingshots, randomness never left the game.  Now imagine a game where the computer attempts to "score"  the pinball to the outhole between your flippers.

Skill was something that creeped into pinballs long before EMs.  Even in bagatelle there is both an element of skill and randomness (as there is in Pachinko).  But I would argue that it is the possibility of a good unskilled score that is important to keeping pinball popular with the masses.

I think of penny arcades and "Penny Falls" or coin pushers.  Yes you can exercise "some" skillin rolling a coin into the right spot to tip the balance, but the coin can just as likely fall into tthe right spot to give you a win and that's what makes it "popular".  Or a game like Shove Ha'Penny. You can be a very skilled player, but you will only get challenged by other skilled players.  But for the average joe to become interested in the game, the possibility of a random win needs to exist in the beginning in order to draw you into it.

The one thing that Stern had almost right was that the average player must experience SOME of the important toys of a pinball  during a game in order to remain engaged (not ALL).  IN fact keeping some back, something that one person can achieve but another can not, is what can make the game attractive to play a number of times.  

Despite the need for random wins, the strength of STTNG, for example, is two fold, if you know the show, you want to play out certain "modes" to see how well it represents what happens in the shows (so attention to the detail of the orignal property is necessary), and you start to become aware, that although difficult, the game is complex and there is more to "draw out" from it.  Layesr to experience the more you play it, although there are some difficult shots, a lot can also be acheived randomly as well.

My point is, if you want to hook an new addict, you must let them experience the heroin early on.

The point on toys, interactive ones I am speaking of, is that they won't put money into more than a single new toy anymore. Look at TAF for example. Four "toys" if you will. The bookcase, the magnets, Thing flip and Thing. If you only have a single toy in there it's pretty hard to have that moment of discovery in which you suddenly find there is more to be earned in the game.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

It's being done with cars....

And how's that working out for them? Oh yeah, record losses.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

So what you are saying, if I understand you rightly, is even when the designers are telling you they can't build what they should be building that we should all put blinders on and blindly follow along like sheep.

The designer, Steve Ritchie, may be saying they cann't build what they want, but many of the games built are very fun and as much fun as any Williams games. Saying LOTR isn't a collectible pin is nonsense. The price has stayed pretty solid and it is desired by many open minded collectors that value fun over brand  

Sure Stern created some dogs, but so did Williams.

I totally disagree with "dumbing" down the product. That's not what is needed. They need to accommodate both the casual player and the wizard. Family Guy/Shrek seems to be the best balance I have seen. To start MB, you either need to hit the centre can (when the mode is lite) x times or knock the drop targets down three times. It is quite possible to start MB by accident and this gives the novice the satisfaction of starting playing MB. The mini pinball is just a great gadget that people love and, again, is easy to understand. Spell pinball. For the pin wizard, you can stack modes, time when you start a MB to coincide with a mode, stack MBs, etc.

Some folks are claiming pins need to be more like EMs? Totally off base. I had two pinball novices over last night. The son, at 13, had never played pinball. While it is true he found all the games confusing even after explaining it to him, he found the Silver Ball Mania boring and slow. Producing slower, easier games would do nothing for pinball. Something else has to happen.

The writing appears on the wall and Stern will be closing. If that is the case, it will be a sad day in pinball. I just don't see another company starting in the future.

Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

  The writing appears on the wall and Stern will be closing.

I think that is inevitable. The sad thing is that in the end it will be the economy that kills it more than anything else. We can discuss policies, designers and anything else, but in the end it is just not profitable anymore. There used to be as many as six pinball manufacturer's before and now ONE cannot survive? Just goes to show you the times we live in today and anyone that thinks this economic mess will be resolved in a fiscal quarter or two is being sadly naive.

Quoted from HP5P

I think that is inevitable. The sad thing is that in the end it will be the economy that kills it more than anything else.  

A poor economy is what gave pinball a "boost" at one point in its life as a "diversion" since it was a gambling game with the prospect of turning your nickle into a half hour or more's worth of play time.  Todays pinballs are too complex for novices and not complex enough for the massive multiplayer gamer, and too expensive to while away your time on them.  Add to that the fact that corporate greed is about making a profit rather than making a living and you have the recipe for disaster.  Think about the mega bucks spent on licensing properties instead of creating "original" properties.

Quoted from cooke

And how's that working out for them? Oh yeah, record losses.

Those cars don't come from GM or Ford, they are aftermarket.  

Quoted from TwilightZone

Producing slower, easier games would do nothing for pinball. Something else has to happen.

Man, are you guys sure you're setting up your older games properly? I've never found older solid state games to be slow when they're properly adjusted and maintained (except for Space Invaders... that game is slooow).

It's always been about profit,you can't build a game like THE ADDAMS FAMILY unless you are selling more than 10,000 games in order to make it profitable.Young people don't play pinball is what PAT LAWLOR said and that is what killed it,I bet XBOX and PLAYSTATION can put all the cool stuff they want in thier games.STEVE RICHIE was absolutly right when he said a theme like THE FAMILY GUY was not liked by parents and they would not like a game like that in thier homes.PAT was right,with no young players the demand and new player base is dropping and in 5 years we will not see pinballs being manufactured.We all like them but how many people on this site will spend more than NIB STERN price for an old game thats popular.I just wonder how long it will take to get bored of the same old games when no more new games are on the way,everyone looks at the reviews of the new games and wants to try them out.
What will you talk about when there is no new games?
RGP will have nothing to b**** about but the fact they all could have made better game if they were in the pinball manufacturing game.
GARY STERN is old and he will retire sooner or later,why would anyone take over a company that has a small profit margin?
He should take his money and run or get his old partner back(JOE KAMINKOW) it wouldn't help much though because there in no more WILLIAMS designs to copy.

(random thoughts..)

All I want to know is... where's my Transformers pin?     Seriously though, a good theme will drive their sales for sure.. WPT is not a sales-driving theme, IMO.  Like Hollywood and console gaming has been doing, they need to stick with the times of the new generation.  The mid-thirties crowd that every other industry is targeting.  Nail them with retro 80's, hit them with remakes of classic themes... hell, even a new Knight Rider pin.

On another note and as silly as it sounds, I thought the ability to select your level of difficulty on Motordome was a FANTASTIC idea!  It keeps everyone happy!  It rewards those who are more skilled with a more difficult game, yet keeps the scoring high and simple for people who just like to bat the ball around randomly.  Hell it even changes the lighting scheme.  A really great idea that I'd love to see in new games.

How about combining redemption with pinball?  Granted, I have NO LOVE for redemption games.. but rewarding players with tickets wouldn't be a bad idea.  It gives them incentive to play.

I think adding more free games is a bad idea.  Op's certainly won't like it, and what happens when a skilled player steps up to the plate?  They play for hours on 1 quarter.  Not attractive to the ops at all.