OK guys... consider this a new edition of Sparky's Lightning Strike. My target this time???

YOU GUYS...... at least, some of you.

Here's a scenario... you see an ad in the local paper's classifieds. The ad says "1990 Honda Civic, beaten to mess, rusted out, burns oil but runs, 3000$"

Do you call the guy to tell him what an a**hole he is?

Here's another... you are walking in a shopping mall and spot a nice simple leather jacket for sale... you look at the price tag and it says 2400$.

Do you walk in the store and tell the manager what an idiot he is?

Here's another once more... You walk into a specific store... one of the ONLY stores left that sell what you want...knowing FULL WELL that the service is a far cry from being excellent... you wait 15 minutes and nobody comes.

Do you start raving like a lunatic to the first employee that comes out?

Is any of this sinking in yet????

OK then... I will get to the point. For the last couple of months, I have noticed that there has been a problem here... it seems that almost every time someone posts something for sale... and I don't mean Alouette specifically... some members have a jolly old time of bashing the seller on anything and everything. Believe it or not, because of this harshness that has developed, ACTIVE MEMBERSHIP IS DOWN. Legitimate posts in the Classifieds are down 39%. Less posts = less machines circulating = less collecting.

Now, before I go on, yes, I understand that there have been some genuine frustrations that have been caused by certain sellers... I know. I have been there too.  Yes, some sellers are overpriced. Yes, some sellers sell junk. We all know that. But keep the following in mind:

1- Classifieds are not FORUMS... they are there to post up what you have for sale, and what you are looking for. They are not there for color commentary, bashing, or whatever negative comment you may have on an ad. We have decided long ago to leave the Classifieds open to replies, in case the seller wants to add onto the post, or if someone wants to signify something CONSTRUCTIVE to the seller.

2- Any comments about a post in the Classifieds are to be made in the FORUMS section. The cleaner we keep the Classifieds, the easier they are to use.

3- ...And this is a personal comment... STOP BITING THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU!!! Keep in mind that if you piss off everybody and every company that posts something up for sale, YOU ARE THE ONE LOSING, because they won't sell here anymore! I have had some good experiences with some sellers here in the group, and some bad ones too. It is also probably vice-versa. But even I have been hesitating in selling in the group I created due to the fact that it has been getting bad.

Now, about Alouette... Yes, they are not the easiest to deal with. I know probably better than most of you, being the one that helped Alouette reopen an account and help them make their first posts. I even have taken 2 days off work to take the first pics a few weeks ago (they are doing it themselves now) and I am even translating their ads into English for Richard. Do I get anything out of it?  ... Not a frickin' red cent. Then why? ... For 2 reasons:

1- I feel good by knowing I am helping the pinball community by helping to keep an open channel to a big supply of pins and vids,

2- Because there aren't many distributors left out there. Amusement911? Gone. Laniel? Gone... or almost. Paul's 50's? Quiet. Cadillacman? Quiet. ...Local sellers are shying away. Less sellers means less machines available locally. I have bought 3 machines from Alouette... yes, reimports, but I still play my tftc every day, and have been very happy with it. No, it wasn't easy dealing with them... but I stuck in there.

Me? I rather overpay locally but see what I am getting, than pay a normal price + ridiculous shipping + Paypal fees + Ebay fees + not knowing what you are getting in the end on Ebay. A few members in this group could testify to that...

And the reality is this... if you REALLY want a game in particular, is there any price too high?

Also... and this I have seen on a few posts... if you want a Twilight Zone, but can only afford a Dolly Parton, is it a reason to give mess to the seller???

I challenge anyone to go to the MAACA main page and read what are mission is in 'who is MAACA". "HELP" is the action we choose to do... not dominate and criticize...

Now, what I suggest is this. If you see an ad in the Classifieds that you don't like, either:

1 - Ignore it

or

2 - Criticize it in the FORUMS. But br civilized... it can bite you in the a** later... I know first hand...

Just my 2 cents, but I know that a few members think the same... this bashing has to stop... or else I better not hear one of you complain that there is nothing locally later on...






Sparky

Im going to have to disagree with a few parts of your post... I think you are comparing apples to orange sometimes.

Quoted from Moonlit_Knight

Here's a scenario... you see an ad in the local paper's classifieds. The ad says "1990 Honda Civic, beaten to mess, rusted out, burns oil but runs, 3000$"

Do you call the guy to tell him what an a**hole he is?


Here's another... you are walking in a shopping mall and spot a nice simple leather jacket for sale... you look at the price tag and it says 2400$.

Do you walk in the store and tell the manager what an idiot he is?

Did anyone actually call and insult them?

I look at like someone had posted ad's in your neighborhood to sell something.  No price, just a contact number.  You call and call but you get no response, or the price is very high.  Well of course you are going to tell your neighbors about it.  Aren't we just "arcade-neighbors" in the MAACA neighborhood?  Passing along information and informing the uninformed?

And parallel to your idea, I think having conversations, in the correct forum, is good. Obviously bashing is a different story. They posted and they should be able to take the heat if there are questions, comments, complaints (like me asking the origin of these pinballs).  By your idea, shows like American Idol, where they show the worst people, should not be shown. If you put yourself in a position where you can be legitimately criticized, then there should be no complaint.  Obviously I expect a rebuttal to this because I am posting.  Common sense.

Quoted from Moonlit_Knight

Here's another once more... You walk into a specific store... one of the ONLY stores left that sell what you want...knowing FULL WELL that the service is a far cry from being excellent... you wait 15 minutes and nobody comes.

Do you start raving like a lunatic to the first employee that comes out?

I don't get this example.  I support Starburst for what I can get, at a reasonable price, all else I need to find elsewhere.

Quoted from Moonlit_Knight

Yes, some sellers are overpriced. Yes, some sellers sell junk.

And we should try to help other collectors by mentioning previous good/bad experiences?  Whats that saying... Friends don't let friends....[fill in the blank].  Even the people in RGP ask for seller checks.  I've asked people I know for references before plunking down thousands on a machine.

Quoted from Moonlit_Knight

2- Because there aren't many distributors left out there. Amusement911? Gone. Laniel? Gone... or almost. Paul's 50's? Quiet. Cadillacman? Quiet. ...Local sellers are shying away. Less sellers means less machines available locally. I have bought 3 machines from Alouette... yes, reimports, but I still play my tftc every day, and have been very happy with it. No, it wasn't easy dealing with them... but I stuck in there.

Hmmm.. I see very few... well actually ZERO posts about collectors actually buying something for these sellers?  Anyone? Anyone?  We are collectors, hobbyists. We are not the people walking in off the street to find a retro toy for our house.  There are some places that really don't cater to the hobbyist ...http://www.pinballoutlet.com and there are others that do.  If you advertise Ferarri's in the National Enquirer and when no one buys... who do you blame?

9/10ths of my collection was through private sellers and collectors.  Honestly advertised and easy to deal with.  That seems to be the real source of most games.

While I agree that the post should be civil and on topic... I also think that sellers, if they are really interested in selling, they will answer queries.  This isnt a $10 DVD, or $20 "as seen on TV" product.  These items are hundreds of dollars.  Something that some people save for a long time to be able to afford.  Niche market = specialized sales support.

I could go on...but I'll stop there.

Agree with Sparky.  Stop bashing sellers because we're usually no better.

You have to admit that pinball has made it into the 'get rich quick' scams...  From the regular collector who finds a steal at 150$ only to turn around and post it for sale for 700$ because that's what the book says it's worth..  We're almost ALL guilty of that one.. GREED.

And the larger dealers that buy containers at about 300$ a machine and then turn around and ask 1000-1500$ each even though they're pieces of mess..  GREED.

In fact I only know of one guy that passes great deals along to others..  He's in Halifax.  He does it for the love of the hobby and not to make a quick buck.  Sometimes I wish I was still back east..  

My thoughts.

Mike

Ian,

As much as I understand your point and mostlikely being one of the 'You guys', I agree...to some extent!

First things first: Classifieds have specific rules. ALL should oblige to them or the admins should remove the posts.

That said, I agree that some over-ranting has a very negative effect on the members trying to sell stuff and the population trying to join the group...

Will I pay a hundred or 2 more for a local machine? YES! Will I pay $1000?? HELL NO!

A lot of people don't understand that the market changes...sometime high, sometimes low.

I have some old video games (Atari/Colecovision, etc.) which were worth a hell of a lot more 3-5 years ago than now. Look what happened with hockey cards...well the same thing is happening with pins. Some increase in value but most of them are declining right now...

For me, service is important...if I call somewhere and I ask something, I expect an answer 'fairly' fast...if not, then I'll spend my bucks elsewhere.

Like 98% of the MAACA members, money IS important...not everyone has thousands of dollars to spend every day on entertainment. Some of them (like me) scrounge to get just enought coin to buy an average or a project machine and to fix it up as I can't afford paying 'premium' price for it. I may need to sell a machine to buy another one...I KNOW market value and I'll ASK market value...if I REALLY need to sell it fast, I'll even LOSE money on it...

Hell, I lost a few hundred on the DH... do you see me cry? NO! mess happens!

Although I've ranted many times, would I buy a pin at Alouette? YES! if the price is RIGHT! I'm not asking for 50% value here, I'm talking a right price! $2000+ for a Baywatch is NOT a 'right price'

Another thing that 'increases' the ranting is that many of us KNOW the value of pins...I'm NOT talking about Joe Jr. has a freaking 'Mr Pinball Guide' and thinks all the prices are CAST IN STONE, or checking every pinball auction on Ebay or at Starburst, I'm talking about readin the newsgroups/discussions, knowing what's hot and what's not as well as title price trends... I can name only a select few in maaca that has the knowledge and a load of "wannabe's".  These 'Joe Jr.s' must understand that guides are GUIDES...I could name you in a matter of seconds 10 games that their values are WAY off compared to the price guides (both ways: too high or too low)

The 'big boys' must understand that we are not strangers that want a pinball machine in their basement and money is no object. We are guys that don't mind getting our hands dirty and work countless number of hours to make this 'box of crap' into a fun and good looking piece of entertainment, which is called a pinball machine. However, if you ask too much for them, we'll go elsewhere to find a 'Diamond in the rough'. There are shows and other warehouses within 10 hours of our hometown who understand that and will be able to help us with rough machines...at a decent price.

Many operators used to make these types of deals, wqhere did they go or why have they changed?

In conclusion:

I, frosken, will stop replying to any classified ads other than to get additional information, but I ask that the moderators stick to the rules and ensure that sellers (whoever they are) list prices and if highly possible, pictures of the machines. I may not buy every single one of them, but I can guarantee you that if I find something decent at a decent price, I'll be knocking at your door!  

Frosken out

Quoted from MrMikeman

You have to admit that pinball has made it into the 'get rich quick' scams...  From the regular collector who finds a steal at 150$ only to turn around and post it for sale for 700$ because that's what the book says it's worth..  We're almost ALL guilty of that one.. GREED.

It really depends. I have paid hundreds more for a game than the buyer paid.  Why?  Because it was still a good price for what it was.  Someone finds a High Speed for $150 and resells it for $800?  I don't mind...still a good deal.

Now if someone buys a High Speed for $500 and tries to sell it to me for $2000... well thats a different story.

I find $10 on the sidewalk....should I give it for free to the next person, just because I got it for free?

Quoted from MrMikeman

Agree with Sparky.  Stop bashing sellers because we're usually no better.

You have to admit that pinball has made it into the 'get rich quick' scams...  From the regular collector who finds a steal at 150$ only to turn around and post it for sale for 700$ because that's what the book says it's worth..  We're almost ALL guilty of that one.. GREED.

And the larger dealers that buy containers at about 300$ a machine and then turn around and ask 1000-1500$ each even though they're pieces of mess..  GREED.

Mike

You're confusing GREED with STUPIDITY.

GREED is when a machine worth, say $1000, but they want 1500 for it...

If I get a good deal on a machine, I spend countless hours on finish/cleaning it, I'm allowed to make a profit. I re-invest it in pins anyways...

If you think that getting a 'deal of the year' pin at half of its value, clean/fix/play it up, then selling to its value (or close to) is GREED, then YOU go buy a container of pins and sell them for what you paid for!....I'm waiting!  

Has anyone given any thought as to why so many of us are speaking out in the first place?  Maybe it has something to do with the rediculous pricing we're seeing lately?  (seems to becomming a trend)

I think the more we see of these rediculous asking prices, not just here but everywhere, the more people are going to speak up.  I agree with Sparky in that it should be kept to the correct location (Forums not Classifieds here @ MAACA), but I would say that 99% of the people that list a pin FS know full well if their asking price is fair or inflated.  (guide or no guide)

If a seller knows full well the asking price is out to lunch (commercial or private) you should expect to be called on it in an open forum such as MAACA or RGP or wherever.  That's the joy of the internet, and if they don't like it maybe they need to rethink their selling strategy?  I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the majority of pins listed FS with fair pricing anywhere on the internet get sold fairly quickly without any "noise" from the community.

So before we go beating ourselves up about all the FS post bashing, maybe the people posting their stuff FS should think about their asking price before they click the POST button.  I'm getting very tired sifting through the FS posts and continually seeing these infalted prices, and I'm almost at the point where I don't even bother looking through the classifieds anymore.  Sparky's info about the FS posts being down 39% is very interesting, but it goes both ways.  The posts could be down because people are not buying as many of these machines due to pricing (along with the flack they're getting), so the posts are not working as they once did and the sellers just aren't posting as much.  On the other hand people may not be looking through the FS posts as much because of the stupid pricing?  Less viewers = less sales = less FS posts due to their inefectiveness?  

I don't know about you guys, but I've got better things to do with my time then sift through post after post after post of guys trying to unload their Hollywood Heat for $750 US......

Doug

Actually, I thought that prices recently were pretty good. Within the last month or two, S.Stebel, Marty and Astill have all posted honest FS ads with photos and good (great?) prices. I'm sure there are others, but those ones come to mind.

Sorry Ian if i bashed Alloette.
I normally dont bash for no reason.
They have a JP that i have been looking for since I started collecting and would like to know what they want for it.
But when you try to reach them for a few days about 10 to 20 calls a day and they never return a call it is very disapointing.
It like taking a warm placing it in front of a fish and saying you cant have it.
For me that does not work it just gets me very mad i normally dont say a word on things like that unless it a pain in the a**.
The was for me because the one game i wanted to know info i could not get and it really gets my goat.

Quoted from ethous

But when you try to reach them for a few days about 10 to 20 calls a day and they never return a call it is very disapointing.

Honestly, I understand all of you. But here is the thing... if Alouette pisses you off, don't deal with them. But if you are trying to reach them but can't get anywhere, and you live too far, please ask someone from Mtl to maybe take a look for you if they can. I know JD and I go there every month or so for parts... we may be able to help.

Besides... not to toot our own horn, but they know who we are.

Quoted from cooke

Actually, I thought that prices recently were pretty good. Within the last month or two, S.Stebel, Marty and Astill have all posted honest FS ads with photos and good (great?) prices. I'm sure there are others, but those ones come to mind.

Apples vs Oranges again.  There is next to nothing commented about these 'private' sellers.  Pricing is fair and uncontroversial.

Quoted from Menace

Has anyone given any thought as to why so many of us are speaking out in the first place?  Maybe it has something to do with the rediculous pricing we're seeing lately?  (seems to becomming a trend)

I think the more we see of these rediculous asking prices, not just here but everywhere, the more people are going to speak up.  

If a seller knows full well the asking price is out to lunch (commercial or private) you should expect to be called on it in an open forum such as MAACA or RGP or wherever.  That's the joy of the internet, and if they don't like it maybe they need to rethink their selling strategy?  I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the majority of pins listed FS with fair pricing anywhere on the internet get sold fairly quickly without any "noise" from the community.

Yes, there have been some sellers (mostly distributors) that have been a bit (if not a lot) high on their prices... but I can tell you that they will have no choice to adjust. Ask anybody close to them... how did their sales go last year... hmm?

My best advice? Ignore the sellers that you think are too high priced. When nobody calls them and nobody comes over, they will be faced with a reality... either lower prices to stay competitive, or close shop. Simple as that. But ... we end up losing also, so it is a tough call...

Now on the other side of the spectrum, yes, there are many out there with more than decent prices... Dave Astill who has recently joined us is fantastic... so are many local sellers... hell, even on Ebay, I noticed some Canadian sellers that are pretty decent, go check out Canada listings... there is a seller in Halifax (don't remember the name) that sells at very decent prices.

Don't perpetuate your frustration... it isn't worth it. Go ahead and post what you think about certain sellers... but in the end, is it worth it?