Here is the list. Couldn't believe there was a Creech there today.

Maybe someone can fill in the prices and give us the scoop on vendor buy backs. I had to cut out to get things going for the meet. Nice BSD by the way Monkeybug!

Where?

Quoted from igorsr

Where?

Sorry but I dont see a list.  Maybe I am missing something.

Its ImageShack website acting up... the link doesnt seems to be working.

Quoted from Azatotht

Its ImageShack website acting up... the link doesnt seems to be working.

Hmmm. try this.

Hey

Nice to see you guys again! i LOVE my rollercoaster tycoon, managed to get it into the house and into the living room no problem, but the fiance didn't want to try taking it down the stairs, so it's setup in the dining room, just moved the table out of the way

lots of fun, nice and fast, and i already have #3 on the high score
13,000,000

Had a blast today

Thanks to subby & friends for the help getting my machine into my Rav 4,
Oh and sub, it wasn't as comfortable riding back to kitchener in the back sqeezed between the pinball and the wall of the car, could barely move when i got home, but alas, I GOT IT  YAY!

Eric.

How were the 2 rush the rocks?

As I can remember, the pins that I paid attention to sold for (I did not stay for the whole thing):

JD with topper $1100
JD, no topper $900
TNMNT $750
Pinbot $975
One of the RCT sold for $1700, but did it sell?

This brings me to a very sore point for me, the bull that this is a NO RESERVE auction. Everyone knows that there is shill bidding going on to protect their reserve, but is it not time for them to start publishing the reserves? I have no problem with them wanting a minimum for a particular game. It happens all the time and even on Ebay. Why can they not state the reserve or minimum wanted and then allow people to decide if they want to bid or not. I bid $1500 to open the bidding on CFTBL, the shill bidder bid $1600, then I bid $1700, he bid $1800, I bid $1900, he bid $2000. Upto now the increments have been $100, now all of a sudden the auctioneer asks for $2050. Why? because the reserve had been hit? Unfortunately only they know, but this is the third time this has happened to me, so this time I said NO. The auctioneer came back to me two more times trying to get me to bid again. I have seen this happen numerous times also to others. I had set my max at $2000, so that was it for me, and nobody else bid so another Starburst buyback. If the reserve was infact $2000, I would have bought it. But this game that they play has worn thin on me and if anyone from Starburst is reading this, IMHO it is time you start posting your reserve!! I believe you would get a lot more sales and less frustration from your customers. I could not see who I was bidding against the time of the auction, but if I saw it was one of your three shill bidders, I would have stopped at $1500 and many others feel the same, they just stop bidding. I only saw who I was bidding against when they handed him the receipt.

Otherwise it seems at least that Thunderstorm is happy. Not sure what you paid, but the RCT were both in great shape, enjoy.

I remember bidding on something two auctions ago.  I was going head to head with one of the shills.  As soon as he dropped out, I knew I hit reserve.  Thought I was in the clear, only to have someone snipe me at the end.  Oh well, I stuck to my price and found a similar machine at a cheaper price 2 months later.

I agree with you Enzo and the fact of the matter is all the high rollers at the auction that buy these games know Starburst's "game". So it is a total waste of time and complete bullshit IM not so HO.

They are at the point as was this case with yourself where we are not buying. The jig is up and they are losing sales over it. We aren't a bunch of guys that will get caught up in the moment and overbid. The guys that shell out that much know the game and have been at it for awhile. These games are returning to sender with their approach.

The fact is most of us will pay the fair dollar if they put the reserve on it and it is reasonable. Yeah they might get only one guy bidding at the reserve. Like Creech you were the only guy there willing to spend those dollars on that pin yesterday. The prices they are getting are fair but still relatively high. You aren't going to get a feeding frenzy when you are at fair value for an unshopped machine in questionable working condition.

Starburst has to sell games and stop "playing" them at the auction. Put a reserve on it and you will get some respect that it is in fact an auction. This shill bidding approach is unethical and frankly not working. It's just pissing people off and so they don't buy.

I got the first RollerCoaster Tycoon, it was in perfect shape, all flippers were working, display was 100% and the playfield looked in good condition.
got it home, no coin mechs, but thats ok, i have a couple kicking around.

I paid $1875 for it, but for one in really good shape, and being it's a 2002 machine, i figured this was a pretty good price,
the 2nd one had some flipper issues went for $1750, so not much less then what i paid.

Never paid this much for a machine before, but it's an expensive hobby i guess.

Sorry you guys didn't make out as well as i did.

Eric.

Yeah the price was fair. It's not the price, it's the principle here. An auction has certain etiquette or protocol, otherwise it is not really an auction. Shill bidding is abhorrent behavior in an auction.

Starburst are repeat offenders of this principle and are pissing off the guys that are getting them good bucks for their re-tread pins.

If it wasn't for the collectors these things would be worth zilch after their commercial life, as it was not too long ago.

DON'T PISS OFF THE COLLECTORS! We are giving them damn good money where they got nothing before!

Do you think they could coax an op to buy a brand new Stern if it wasn't generously funded by the resale of their old pins? Do we not keep the market viable for new pins as well?

There is a lot to be said for the collectors, in fact in many respects, new and old, they keep pinball alive.

I was discussing this a bit after the auction with one of the regular ops. He was saying that SB basically encourages the ops (and, in turn, Starburst themselves) to shill up the price on their own items. This maintains the perception of value and at the next auction, the same item may sell to a "real" buyer because of what is "sold" for at the previous auction.

We've also discussed this at length on CGCC and the general consensus is basically this: play by Starburst's rules or run the risk of having no auctions at all. It's not really the ideal situation, but they're the only game in town so there's no alternative. I, for one, would prefer to have the auctions continue, if nothing else.

On the other hand, it seems to me that Starburst uses the auctions more as a sales tactic to get people into the showroom. And you know what? It works.

If their justification is holding up the prices, that argument holds no water.

If you want to maintain a certain price threshold, then a reserve ensures that without the underhanded approach they have taken.

Don't they get money even if the vendor buys it back at auction? It would seem that this approach is good, not for the seller or buyer, but for Starburst's pockets.

Let's be honest about it. We dislike it. We can voice that to them, and we have the cash and the option to buy or walk away.

Cudo's to Enzo for walking. F'em. Unfortuately Starburst still wins, they got money from the seller. Hopefully he didn't raise cash to buy a new pin from them.

The main issue here is don't insult our intelligence on the basis that we don't know their game and that we want to continue with this charade like we are a bunch of F'n lemmings. It's the deceitfulness of the process that is really sour.

No auctions does not equate to no old off route pins. You may find that ops not having that option might sell you directly for a better price. You could alway save your money and pay for a ticket to Ringling Brothers when they come to town. Lately the auction has been good entertainment value.

I understand Cooke's point, we do want an auction, nobody is asking for it be eliminated. But Glen is right, do not insult our intelligence. I do not mind reserves, that is what I am asking for, everyone has the right to decide what he wants to sell his product for.

What is frustrating is watching the auctioneer work the crowd for 3-5 minutes, and in the end it is bought back. What a waste of everyones time!! If the reserve is $500, annouce the bidding starts there. No bids, move on. No time wasted, no frustrated bidders. That is the way any other auction with a reserve works.

I think this is the point.

I don't get it... all of you are complaining of a clear-as-day scam... but no one has called them out on it??? The last time I was at an auction (not pin related... was for tools...) I was bidding on a tool lot that I knew was worth about 2000$. Bidding started at 500$ and I waited to see if anybody was interested. A full 30 seconds had passed and I saw no one raise their hand, so I bid 500$ JUSt before the auctioneer closed the bidding.

  All of a sudden, this guy bids right after me without the least hesitation. I knew right away there was shilling goign on. I then decided to test my theory and bid twice more... and both times, the same guy bid right after my bid was confirmed... their tactics were good but their acting and timing sucked and gave them away.

The auctioneer was then pushing me to bid again, as mentioned like Starburst did, only I gave them an answer... I told the auctioneer to let his shiller buddy have it so they can buy the damn tools back and be stuck with them. Needless to say that it caused quite a commotion in the audience as 95% of the guys there were legitimate bidders and they also saw what was going on, but were just too shy to say . Half the hall emptied in less than 5 minutes, and they were pissed, both bidders and auctioneers...

That auction company had probably scammed quite a few people because they closed 6 months later due to ... legal matters.     ... not by my account though.

I know that we basically have to keep supporting businesses related to the hobby... but not if you are treated as such. Wanna make Starburst stop? Easy... either call them out on their scam (in a polite way of course), or simply don't go at all.

Quoted from HP5P

What is frustrating is watching the auctioneer work the crowd for 3-5 minutes, and in the end it is bought back. What a waste of everyones time!! If the reserve is $500, annouce the bidding starts there. No bids, move on. No time wasted, no frustrated bidders. That is the way any other auction with a reserve works.

I think this is the point.

  yep, that would be best.  but as glen stated, sb makes money off the seller that bids and wins there own stuff.  good money at that.  so the poor seller is told that he should bid against his own machine to get the most money he can.  but then they end up winning it and getting no money, just a bill for the sale of the machine.   sb just tells them to try and sell it at the next auction.  if they do this 2-3 times and end up buying their own machine each time thats alot of money just out of the orginal sellers pocket.  its a great racket.   sb puts reserves on some of their ebay items or start their auctions at a amount they min want for a game.  can't see why they don't do it in real life.  

Look guys. I think the picture of the clowns says it all.

When your the only game in town and write and make your own rules as game goes along then you end up with the reputation that goes with it. It's good to King is all I can say, and in a one horse town it beats walking.

Starburst entertains me for free. Who's winning now baby. In ring number three we see.... Joust!

This is a little bit incorrect.  The people that do a buy back do not pay the same commish as if it was an actual sale.  Sale is a percentage of the sale price.  A buy back is a nominal flat fee, somewhere in the neighbourhood of $25.  


=299]


  yep, that would be best.  but as glen stated, sb makes money off the seller that bids and wins there own stuff.  good money at that.  so the poor seller is told that he should bid against his own machine to get the most money he can.  but then they end up winning it and getting no money, just a bill for the sale of the machine.   sb just tells them to try and sell it at the next auction.  if they do this 2-3 times and end up buying their own machine each time thats alot of money just out of the orginal sellers pocket.  its a great racket.   sb puts reserves on some of their ebay items or start their auctions at a amount they min want for a game.  can't see why they don't do it in real life.  
[/quote]

I take it then that shill bidding isn't illegal in Ontario?  In that case I think I'll give Starburst a wide berth just out of principal and stick to homeowner finds and the odd dealer trade.  But then I'm cheap.

So you are saying that in some areas shill bidding is a form of auction fraud; as in criminal repercussions??

I ain't no (stinking, dirty, disgusting, bottom feeding...etc.) lawyer, but them's fighten words.

The only lawyer I ever liked was mine... but he still bills me. Ok... I retract that last statement.

Quoted from HP5P

is it not time for them to start publishing the reserves?

If you stand behind the black guy in his early 30's with a goatee and baseball hat (a regular shiller), sneak a look at his auction list. He has prices marked next to certain items that he has to bid on during the auction.

I looked at a few that he had written once, and sure enough, that's what he bid when the item came up. And when the auction is over he just leaves.

Quoted from Dave W.

If you stand behind the black guy in his early 30's with a goatee and baseball hat (a regular shiller), sneak a look at his auction list. He has prices marked next to certain items that he has to bid on during the auction.

I looked at a few that he had written once, and sure enough, that's what he bid when the item came up. And when the auction is over he just leaves.

Yeah, like it was said before. Bad actors. They can't even remember their lines.

Maybe we should get them a teleprompter so they look a little less conspicuous.

I dare you guys to put signs on their backs that say "shiller" like the old "kick me" joke.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

So you are saying that in some areas shill bidding is a form of auction fraud; as in criminal repercussions??

Yes, in some States shill bidding is a form of fraud (as it really should be,). Afterall, disguising yourself as a buyer and not disclosing a minimum price and trying to artificially drive up a price or value is a deceptive practice, I am full of wonder that it's not already illegal.

It's no surprise though. My uncle was a prominent pinball/video/coin-op distributor in Vancouver years back and he was tied in with the mob.  The tobacco industry paid him well too.  Pinballs and vending machines have always been tied up with under the table, cash businesses, gangs (territories) and gambling.

ok if it is the same shillers all the time between all the group here who attend why dont you use the cell phone cameras and snap a few pics of these guys so we all know who they are. just a thought.

And since you will then have a few snapshots, use them to go to the police or some fraud group in Toronto and report it so that they don't auction ever again (the less crooks the better in life).  So what if we collectors have less sources to buy from....

Quoted from 80s.fan

And since you will then have a few snapshots, use them to go to the police or some fraud group in Toronto and report it so that they don't auction ever again (the less crooks the better in life).  So what if we collectors have less sources to buy from....

ok,, so as long as it suits us its ok for them to shill because we know who they are? if some noob who goes who doesnt know what to look for gets ripped off, its no skin off our nose becuase it wasnt us? maybe not going as far as going to the police, but maybe if enough people know maybe it might change the way they do business. yes they will change shillers but if enough people pick up on it fast enough, it may force em to go legit. we do have a means of comunicating here lets use it. there is alot of us here ready to jump on a poster with a crazy price for a machine but no one will stand up to a bigger guy?

hey it is just my opinion take it or leave it. this forum is a voice for all in the hobby read the misson statement again.

I really wouldn't mind if items had a reserve either... though this might put an end to those $50 bargain cabs.

Where the shilling hurts is when you hold out during an auction for an item near the end and let several good deals pass by. THen when you finally get to that last item, you see you're bidding again a Starburst shill.  

That's why if I know a machine belongs to Starburst, I never hold out for it. Aim for something else in the room.

Also, I don't get the logic that Starburst would stop the auctions if they couldn't shill?  Even if they couldn't be bothered, those pinballs are going to be job lotted or sold elsewhere aren't they?  I would suggest that those interested in stopping the practice, particularly those that are past customers of the auctions let their concerns be known to Starburst and see what they say.  I'm not a big fan of "let the other guy get ripped if he doesn't know" attitude.  

And then there's group buying power.  The States have a lot of pinballs, certainly a group of collector buyers here could get together create a shopping list and pool enough to make the purchase of a container worthwhile to some dealer south of the border? (But I may be naive.)

Quoted from websherpa

And then there's group buying power.  The States have a lot of pinballs, certainly a group of collector buyers here could get together create a shopping list and pool enough to make the purchase of a container worthwhile to some dealer south of the border? (But I may be naive.)

This is an idea with merit. I'm sure that back when the US dollar was actually worth something, this is something I'll bet happend going the other way.

As for SB, I wouldn't go to SB to buy machines if I had other options. If Superauctions was in Detroit a little more often, I would only go there, and of course deal with private sales. I always go to SB with a very firm idea of what I want to spend and what the machines I am looking at are worth. I've gone home empty-handed a few times because I refuse to play games with the shills and the idiotic SB auctioneer.

Keep in mind this isn't a big-money auction, like car, art or antiquities auctions. These guys are not professional auctioneers. Shilling is just a fact of life. As long as you stick to your budget and don't suffer from a case of cranial-rectal inversion, you'll do fine.

Once you 've been to the auction a few times and have bought a few machines at a few auctions, you may find that some op may approach you about buying machines outside of the auction. The networking and social aspect of the gathering is the best reason to go some days.

Okay, I'm done rambling now.

I have seen enough,I'm glad I didn't bother going.It's not something I am willing to support.

Quoted from Grauwulf

Once you 've been to the auction a few times and have bought a few machines at a few auctions, you may find that some op may approach you about buying machines outside of the auction. The networking and social aspect of the gathering is the best reason to go some days.

Yep, The guys with a few machines usually get disappointed and start to deal amongst each other. I have witnessed a lot of deals this way.

We can't forget the entertainment value and the IKEA breakfast. It's a cheap date.

I've been approached by ops a few times now, espacially on days where I have bought more than a couple machines.