I was wondering if anyone has put in a pre-order for the re-release of MM or CC offered by the Pinball Factory.  MM is now closed for pre-orders but CC is still available.

A quick Google search on this topic will reveal how much of a scam this is.

MM were supposed to be completed back in 2006  (or something).
...Still nothing as of this date.

People who put down deposits will likely never see their money again,
and this will likely result in the collapse of PBF when class action lawsuits
start pouring in from all over.

Do yourself a favor and keep your money...

Steph

To play devil's advocate.....

People though the same thing for Big Bang Bar.

But... Gene already had all the pieces for assembly.  And he is semi-local.

I can't seen Wayne making them...he seems to busy trying to make money from lawyers and nothing else.

I would not say that Steph. Everytime I contacted them for my order, I have always had a reply the day after (14 hours time zone difference). They have moved once, have had trouble getting all the parts needed for the games and lastly have had trouble with the whitewood and had to send it back.

They have sent automative emails to all there members to say the they will have 20 extra cabinets from there production, and to say that MM will be available in early 2009, they even have the price for those who chose to not put there confidence in them, 9999.00$ U.S..

Quoted from ALJO

I would not say that Steph. Everytime I contacted them for my order, I have always had a reply the day after (14 hours time zone difference). They have moved once, have had trouble getting all the parts needed for the games and lastly have had trouble with the whitewood and had to send it back.

They have sent automative emails to all there members to say the they will have 20 extra cabinets from there production, and to say that MM will be available in early 2009, they even have the price for those who chose to not put there confidence in them, 9999.00$ U.S..

So have they provided any photos, etc.  I might consider pre-ordering a CC but I just want to make sure that the quality is going to be worth it.  I would have loved to pre-order a MM but they had already closed the pre-order list.    I guess I will have to track a MM down at a later date.

Keep on dreaming if you think that Wayne will ever produce a game. If you want a MM or CC, they are around, buy one here in North America. Better to buy what you can see , than what is promised. My two cents on that subject.

Quoted from sensfreak

So have they provided any photos, etc.  I might consider pre-ordering a CC but I just want to make sure that the quality is going to be worth it.  I would have loved to pre-order a MM but they had already closed the pre-order list.    I guess I will have to track a MM down at a later date.

No pictures, but I am confident that the game will arrive somewhere near Spring as I have contacted them many many times (because at one point I thought I got ripped off) and always with an answer, and they know that I am the guy who reproduced a Williams Backglass that they almost sewed. The quality, I am sure, will be worth it, All those delayes were because of quality control, each and everytime, quality was an issue to delay another 8 to 12 weeks.

Can't wait to receive it!

Quoted from ALJO

No pictures, but I am confident that the game will arrive somewhere near Spring as I have contacted them many many times (because at one point I thought I got ripped off) and always with an answer, and they know that I am the guy who reproduced a Williams Backglass that they almost sewed. The quality, I am sure, will be worth it, All those delayes were because of quality control, each and everytime, quality was an issue to delay another 8 to 12 weeks.

Can't wait to receive it!

Quoted to preserve for posterity.

I'll set my alarm for May or June of next year and see where TPF is with this project. They're only 2.5 years behind schedule...  

Claude, I didn't know you were on the MM pre-order list.

I really really hope you eventually get a machine,
but frankly, I think the odds are pretty slim.

I've never dealt with Wayne directly, but I've heard nothing but bad things about him.
He's been promising MM's for YEARS now, and he's still coming up with excuses.
(... and he's got absolutely nothing to prove he's even started the project...)

Personally, I think he spent/wasted/lost the deposit money on MM
and is hoping to recoup some of that with the CC pre-order.

I sincerely hope people who've sent a deposit will not be disappointed,
but at this point, I would consider it reckless to send him any more money
for whatever project he's boasting about.

...but that's just me...



Steph

Quoted from ALJO

Can't wait to receive it!

You didn't read the small prints?  you have to drive and pick it up  

I sent thousands of dollars to a Nigerian prince on the promise that it would eventually pay out. I thought it might be a scam, but they emailed me back two days later saying it wasn't. Phew! That was a close call!

If you put down money on a pre-order, it's a gamble. It might pay off (like for the people who pre-ordered BBB), but with Wayne, who has a pretty bad reputation...

Where's the pics of their factory? Have the even assembled a prototype? Where are the wiring harnesses, people assembling machines? All this risk for a game that's readily available for a similar price anyways? No thank you.

Quoted from jonny_eh

Where's the pics of their factory? Have the even assembled a prototype? Where are the wiring harnesses, people assembling machines? All this risk for a game that's readily available for a similar price anyways? No thank you.

Maybe a Dingo ate the prototype?

Quoted from Mrhide

You didn't read the small prints?  you have to drive and pick it up  

seriously, with an Australian order... I did read the small prints, and that was the first thing I watched....500$ U.S. for delivery to a port, which in my case is "Le Port De Quebec".

Quoted from cooke

Quoted to preserve for posterity.

I'll set my alarm for May or June of next year and see where TPF is with this project. They're only 2.5 years behind schedule...  

Not to worry, I met a guy from Michigan a year and a half ago who sold me a game, that had waited 2 years for his BBB order... , he had it and showed it to me when I went at his place.

Yea 2 years with staus updates, pictures of machines being assembled and prrof tha  t is actually happening.  That and the fact there were less then 200 machines produced makes it much more of a fesible proposition.  

Wayne is promising 1000 machines produced, has provided nothing in terms of pictures of proof and does not have the ability to produce in parts let alone a machine.  Everything that has come from TPF has come from 3rd party's licensed by Wayne.  

If I were you I'd be getting my money back NOW, but hey Wayne said it's comming so it must be true

Hey Claude, you know Gullible isn't in the dictionary right?

What about Crocodile Hunter? What ever happened to that pin?

Quoted from Vengeance

Yea 2 years with staus updates, pictures of machines being assembled and prrof tha  t is actually happening.  That and the fact there were less then 200 machines produced makes it much more of a fesible proposition.  

Wayne is promising 1000 machines produced, has provided nothing in terms of pictures of proof and does not have the ability to produce in parts let alone a machine.  Everything that has come from TPF has come from 3rd party's licensed by Wayne.  

If I were you I'd be getting my money back NOW, but hey Wayne said it's comming so it must be true

Hey Claude, you know Gullible isn't in the dictionary right?

When I'll recieve my MM I'll post pics.

I know what kind of guy you are Adam... it's OK, I like you anyway, I have no hard feelings against anyone (sometimes it's hard not to though) as opposed to some MAACA members who ,"I know", don't like me much.

Quoted from cooke

They're only 2.5 years behind schedule...  

It's worse than that... Wayne only bought (or should I say financed thru the Aussie gvmt) the rights for 5 years... and time is almost up... look it up on RGP. I believe his time is up in 2009 or 2010 latest.

And Claude... why are you taking it personally? Most here are trying to help you. The whole thing stinks... no pics... no news... Members just don't want to see another member get stiffed, that's all.

If Wayne would have had some pics up, people wouldn't have been so hard on him. But when the only pics he has released are Photoshop fakes (Croc Hunter), and even Aussies close to him say it is a scam, what do you expect?

Me personally, I sincerely hope you do get it. But everything points to the opposite.

Total scam.. it completely fits the profile.  A douchebag preying on the wishful thinking people of a niche market.  I'm sorry, but I'm with the rest.. you really should be getting your money back while you still can.

I would L-O-V-E to see this #$%@er get sued.. it would be sweet sweet revenge for those who've been attacked by his lawyers for trying to do something as simple as keeping their basement machines alive and in good shape.  This bastard deserves nothing less (well.. maybe a good flogging)

2 and a half years with no pics AT ALL of the progress?  That's like a giant neon sign saying "KEEP YOUR MONEY AND RUN".  If you believe the correspondence he's sending you, keep this in mind... a good scam artist never just severs their ties with your money, they'll always lead you on so you don't alert any authorities before it's too late.  Take it from me, a victim of a scam ring.

A little history. You did read this article way back when before making your decision?

http://www.pinballnews.com/news/bally.html

and Gary's response

http://www.pinballnews.com/news/bally2.html

Clock is ticking on Gillards license. To me the claim of being able to make games without the benefit of getting the tooling and profit from it at those prices is all too good to be true.

Quoted from machine.slave

a good scam artist never just severs their ties with your money, they'll always lead you on so you don't alert any authorities before it's too late.  Take it from me, a victim of a scam ring.

I know what a good scam is... I've lost 2500$ in a 6 month laps with 2 guys... never heard about them again.

Quoted from Sparky

And Claude... why are you taking it personally?

Quoted from Adam... but if Wayne says so, it must be true!


This is why.

As for the comment "i know some members don't like me very much" , that was not about this thread.

I know that members want to help me and I appreciate it.

you can bid on a BBB if you want: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200282659588

Quoted from Mrhide

you can bid on a BBB if you want: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200282659588

I was never attracted by this game.

Quoted from ALJO

I know what kind of guy you are Adam... it's OK, I like you anyway, I have no hard feelings against anyone (sometimes it's hard not to though) as opposed to some MAACA members who ,"I know", don't like me much.

Your a good guy too Claude, I didn't mean to make it sound like a personal attack if that is the way it came off, if anything we are all just trying to look out for your best interests, don't want to see you get scrwed.

I really hope it works out, would be sweet to see the machine made, but it just doesn't look like it going to happen.

Let me ask this, a straight forward question.  Have you seen anything that would suggest that these machines are being built?  Asembly photos, empty cabinets, wiring looms, anything?  

what happens when the rights are due?how does a guy bid on them?

you call these guys up: http://www.wms.com/contact.php
actually, if you look under International, there's an office in calgary! go see them !

Should I be hoping that Gary buys it, and starts producing MMs and AFMs? Probably cheaper than designing new games.

Quoted from ALJO

seriously, with an Australian order... I did read the small prints, and that was the first thing I watched....500$ U.S. for delivery to a port, which in my case is "Le Port De Quebec".

That's odd, my understanding was that it was US$500 for delivery "within Australia".  I could be wrong.

Quoted from websherpa

That's odd, my understanding was that it was US$500 for delivery "within Australia".  I could be wrong.

This is a moot point, isn't it?  

made 3 different calls and it all ended with no one knowing how to buy the rights?does anyone know where does a guy go from here.

Call Roger Sharpe. He'll know.

Quoted from hardkor

made 3 different calls and it all ended with no one knowing how to buy the rights?does anyone know where does a guy go from here.

That sounds about on par with what the NuCore guys were saying at Expo.. the Williams hounds have no clue nor care of their pinball licenses.  Any hassle you'll have on their licenses comes from Wayne alone, as Williams really doesn't give a flying $%&#  

(as a matter of fact, the original design team of P2K really want the NuCore thing to happen)

The only one who'll give a flying f*ck is a third party (like their property rights agent law firm) that can make a buck on the sale / re-license of rights.

I guess if you want to find out how to get the license, you'll need to hire an IP lawyer/investigator. IP law sucks, and is a mess, especially in this case.

Contact someone at Williams Gaming, and see?

start reproducing a part and they will contact YOU !

Quoted from websherpa

That's odd, my understanding was that it was US$500 for delivery "within Australia".  I could be wrong.

No, within Australia was 300$ U.S.

Quoted from Mrhide

start reproducing a part and they will contact YOU !

Always a word for laughs!

And truth!

Quoted from Vengeance

Let me ask this, a straight forward question.  Have you seen anything that would suggest that these machines are being built?  Asembly photos, empty cabinets, wiring looms, anything?  

Nope! Just a good feeling about it all.

Quoted from ALJO

Nope! Just a good feeling about it all.

You must make your family very happy Claude as you are full of positive energy!!  You really must be a joy to live with and I mean that sincerely, as I am always full of doubt / cynicism .   Good luck - hope you get the machine.

Quoted from Tuborg

You must make your family very happy Claude as you are full of positive energy!!  You really must be a joy to live with and I mean that sincerely, as I am always full of doubt / cynicism .   Good luck - hope you get the machine.

I describe myself as a skeptic. I try not to be gullible, nor cynical. It's a tight rope to walk, but well worth it IMHO. If you're too credulous, you get scammed (either literally or metaphorically), if you're too cynical, you're just no fun then

Quoted from jonny_eh

I describe myself as a skeptic. I try not to be gullible, nor cynical. It's a tight rope to walk, but well worth it IMHO. If you're too credulous, you get scammed (either literally or metaphorically), if you're too cynical, you're just no fun then

That pretty much describes me, but there are allways exceptions.

Quoted from Tuborg

You must make your family very happy Claude as you are full of positive energy!!  You really must be a joy to live with and I mean that sincerely, as I am always full of doubt / cynicism .   Good luck - hope you get the machine.

Thanks! I'm not too worried.

Pessimists are the very happiest people actually, because we're never disappointed.  

In this case, I'm a skeptic of Wayne's claims. To be a good skeptic, you need to follow Carl Sagan's maxim of 'Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence'. Claiming to be able to produce 1000 pinball machines is 'quite' extraordinary, IMO, so would demand quite a bit of evidence to make me a believer. Gene's claim of making 200 BBB wasn't too extraordinary, especially considering he had all the parts, and produced plenty of evidence.

Quoted from Mrhide

start reproducing a part and they will contact YOU !

Sounds like Wayne is the only one that will. I wish Williams would just give the damn rights away to the general public and we would be done with this crap.

Quoted from ALJO

No pictures, but I am confident that the game will arrive somewhere near Spring as I have contacted them many many times (because at one point I thought I got ripped off) and always with an answer, and they know that I am the guy who reproduced a Williams Backglass that they almost sewed. The quality, I am sure, will be worth it, All those delayes were because of quality control, each and everytime, quality was an issue to delay another 8 to 12 weeks.

Can't wait to receive it!

So here we are....spring time! Anyone got their MM or CC yet?





I thought not.

Quoted from cooke

So here we are....spring time! Anyone got their MM or CC et?





I thought not.

They meant spring 2012. What's your rush?!

Quoted from cooke

Anyone got their MM or CC et?

Yeah.... but it was built by Williams. Nuff said.

Quoted from jonny_eh

They meant spring 2012. What's your rush?!

you made a typo.. it's 2112... and not becase of RUSH but because the Mayan's knew that time would stop if wayne shipped

Quoted from cooke

So here we are....spring time! Anyone got their MM or CC yet?





I thought not.

No!
But still can't wait to recieve it....
I'm thinking of asking my money back...I need the money these days, any suggestions on how's the best way to do this to make sure I get a refund??

Quoted from ALJO

No!
But still can't wait to recieve it....
I'm thinking of asking my money back...I need the money these days, any suggestions on how's the best way to do this to make sure I get a refund??

Awesome news! I'm really glad to hear this. Good choice!

Quoted from ALJO

any suggestions on how's the best way to do this to make sure I get a refund??

Why not just ask for it back?  Or is that a problem?

If you mean physically how can he send you money?

International postal money order would probably be fine. It may end up being issued in USD at the current exchange rate vice Cdn though.

Lets face it if he were close to producing them he could sell yours for more money, so he should have no reason to hesitate refunding you the money.

Quoted from Monkeybug

Why not just ask for it back?  Or is that a problem?

Not a problem for me, but maybe for them...Know what I mean?

Just asking doe'nt guaranty I'll get my money back...But the way of asking can really help.

Example: When Wayne asked me to stop reproducing the backglass I made, he did'nt just ask, but he sent his lawers to do so....And I must say that it was pretty intimidating, and, at the same time, convincing.

I doubt very much that it makes much difference how you ask.  You certainly won't intimidate him if that's the route you decide to go.  I doubt appealing to his good nature by asking nicely would produce results any different either.

If I was a gambling man, which I'm not - hence no deposit for one of these machines from me....I would bet your funds are long gone and unrecoverable.  It would make me happy to be proven wrong in this case.

I wish you luck.

When you gave him your deposit was there any documentation about it?  Did he give you a receipt or anything?  Otherwise you could be SOL.

Congrats on your choice to get your money back though.. a wise move, Aljo.  I do understand your wanting of this promise of new machines to be true.. hell, we ALL want to see new machines being made.  Sadly though, after 4 years all we've seen are 1 empty, blank cab and a table full of NOS parts?  Even people on RGP who have been to the "factory" have claimed there's been ZERO progress... so I can also understand why people who've sent him money are starting to get upset.

Think about it.. Wayne claims that all of the pre-order deposits have been filled.  If that's true, he's sitting on a few million dollars there.  Even if he's played nice and hasn't spent or invested any of that money, the interest alone is enough to live off of.

As for his "lawyers", I'm fully convinced his "legal dept." also goes by "receptionist"  

Quoted from machine.slave

When you gave him your deposit was there any documentation about it?  Did he give you a receipt or anything?  Otherwise you could be SOL.

I do have a receipt in hand and my credit card receipt too.

I've sent him an email....we'll see what happens tomorro, he always answers quite quickly...but maybe not this time.

If you waited all this time, you might as well wait another year or however long it takes.
I know there are a lot of people out there who think it will never happen, but I think they are wrong-
People said the same thing thing to me about the big bang bar that is in my basement.
Wayne may be slow, but he is making steady progress.
Assembling a pinball machine is not rocket science people do it in their basements all the time.
He has a working ASIC and to me that was the only technical hurdle, it's all just metal stampings and printed parts now.
If you would really like a nice new MM hang in there.
Watch these MPG's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86lHVzMfSTE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a56ft_hMdAU&feature=channel
Tim

Quoted Text

Assembling a pinball machine is not rocket science people do it in their basements all the time.

No, people don't do it 'all the time'. It'll take one guy almost a year, if they're good, to churn out one machine. Wayne has promised ONE THOUSAND machines. There's no WAY he can manufacture that many. He hasn't even produced ONE machine.

I've just received an answer saying, quote: "No problem, I just need your game number to get the money out of the trust account."

Pretty easy!

I've asked if I could get a credit on my credit card...we'll see.

I was pretty sure that I would receive the game too, but now I have other game that I am more interrested in, and like I said... I need the money.

What sort of background does Wayne really have to fund this venture?

Did the deposits go to producing the products that we are now seeing from Pinball Factory or did Wayne have deep enough pockets?

All this talk about Wayne over the years... enlighten me. I have to ask who really is Wayne?

Credit on credit card will be of no problem.

I think I was very close to receiving the game...Bah...Joust is much more fun!

If you paid by credit card and you do not received monies back, file a claim with the credit card company for non delivery of goods. They will open a case and get the monies for you. If Wayne cannot produce evidence of delivery, they will refund your money. Paying by credit card was the smartest thing you could do.

Quoted from HP5P

If you paid by credit card and you do not received monies back, file a claim with the credit card company for non delivery of goods. They will open a case and get the monies for you. If Wayne cannot produce evidence of delivery, they will refund your money. Paying by credit card was the smartest thing you could do.

... and once you get your money back, I would post about it on RGP. I am sure that many are just waiting for an excuse to get their money back. Once one guy does it, many others follow.

And then I can just see it now, Wayn-o stating: " It's all YOUR fault that I didn't produce any MM or CC pins because you all pulled your deposits. Now I am broke and I cannot afford to build them."

Why someone at Williams hasn't pulled the rights back is completely beyond me. Their name is getting dragged through the mud by this idiot...

Quoted from necro_nemesis

What sort of background does Wayne really have to fund this venture?

Did the deposits go to producing the products that we are now seeing from Pinball Factory or did Wayne have deep enough pockets?

All this talk about Wayne over the years... enlighten me. I have to ask who really is Wayne?

I believe although he was fairly well-off to start with, he purchased the WMS licenses and parts with a government grant.

Quoted from machine.slave

I believe although he was fairly well-off to start with, he purchased the WMS licenses and parts with a government grant.

Correct.

Quoted from machine.slave

I believe although he was fairly well-off to start with, he purchased the WMS licenses and parts with a government grant.

not certain about the "well off" part.  he ebay'd  two "exotic cars" for  50K to finance croc hunter. Which is chump change and the cars weren't that special to begin with.

What TPF doesn't have is a real factory.  He's shown bits of stuff that I've seen from private collectors.  Test fixtures, cabinets, parts, etc.  So he has MM parts like troll heads.  Is that significant proof that he's for real?  Maybe but these are stuff that would be made as replacement parts anyways.  IPB has reproduced MM pf's already.  Where's TPF's MM pfs after how many years?  Problems with the whitewood?  Oh come on, at this stage of the game?  Where's the stack and stack of cabinet panels?  That video shows one.  Give me a break.  He was a distributor.  He has no clue about manufacturing when he said he would make MM.  He probably realized long ago that 1000 MM is a little out of his league but his ego is too big to admit it.  You can tell how big his ego is from his various messages on the forums and groups.

Quoted from takochef

not certain about the "well off" part.  he ebay'd  two "exotic cars" for  50K to finance croc hunter. Which is chump change and the cars weren't that special to begin with.

Well.. "well off" to me means doing better than I am      But yeah, I see your point.

It's a shame Croc Hunter never got produced, the concept design looked pretty funky.

Quoted from machine.slave

Well.. "well off" to me means doing better than I am      

Same here... If I were to sell off a couple of exotic cars I have at home, my son would be pissed about his missing Hot Wheels.