I think it is fair to say that at least 95% of the people on MAACA play pinball for social and recreational purposes.

While there are some that are seriously competitive, the emphasis on this forum is to just have fun and continue to promote the hobby and provide a place for those passionate on the subject to exchange ideas.

Not to say that those who are passionate about tournament play dont deserve their say. Just remember, not everyone here has exactly the same interests (or opinions).

I find it all interesting and a great diversion when I am bored at work.

Quoted from whizzervic

Sorry for intruding , but it seems like the social and fun part of the hobby is kind of left on the side here . competition is good , but pinball is a fun part of my life and actually the main reason for me to own pins ...    (see links of the LMBQ meetings slideshows below)

http://entertainment.webshots.com/slideshow/577020990GMkDSq

http://entertainment.webshots.com/slideshow/577403631XbdHEa

Well yea because the topic of the conversation was about competition as per Wayne's comment on how broken and unplayable games should be fine in a competitive setting.

I've said before, if your casual and don't care about the playability of your machines, then yea why would you care if LED's are too bright or cause ghosting, it doesn't matter.  

But when you are paying $20 a pop and playing for $10,000, tempers run VERY high when games are not absolutely perfect from a playability perspective.  

Quoted from Vengeance

But when you are paying $20 a pop and playing for $10,000, tempers run VERY high when games are not absolutely perfect from a playability perspective.  

I agree, but that isn't "real" pinball, and fun for only a limited group, that's professional pinball. Pinball was (and still is in my heart) $0.25 a play (or less if it doesn't have a string cutter), you stack your quarters on the deck to reserve a next play, and you pray to god that all of the rubbers are there and the score reels turn, before you begin.  

In any case, my main point was that I was suggesting that some people are more affected by the change and affect of LEDs than others (due to physical and perceptual differences) and the experience could be less than satisfying... maybe you fall into this category?  By the same token, there may be some people who don't notice the flicker or brightness and prefer the new look.

I think you took exception to my linking your LED preference to helping maintain a personal competitive edge.  Fair enough, that's just what leapt to mind when you came on so strongly anti-LED.

I was a skeptic too until I saw Jester's fine machines in full blinking glory (including Black Knight).  I still have my reservations for all the reasons you have stated.

I know that I'll never win a $20k pinball tournament (would be nice...) LED or not, or even with a "Catch Up" feature....but this thread has more to do with pinballs in people's basements for casual use than for pro tournament circuit players anyway.

If ALL of the available TOPL locations (except yours of course) changed their pins to LEDs despite your protestations, I am very much doubting you would drop out of the league competition...you would adapt, albeit begrudgingly.

One of the things that puts some people off competitive play IS the competitiveness, or more accurately the aggressiveness and determination of some of the players.  Nothing wrong with that, all sports are dominated by spirited competitors.  Funny enough though,  it seems like the best "natural" players are "gentle giants"...  

Now how did this thread come to be about competition pinball anyway....oops, my fault.  

I would imagine that IF pinball machines continue to be manufacturered for another 5 years, then we will likely see the new ones go ALL LED and they will be used in competition...and certain competitors will continue to be fussy.  But of course they will choose brightnes combinations and use flicker free power if their engineering is to be respected.

Not too sure about Stern going LED if that raises costs.

Nice debate. Good points on both sides.

For me, it's personal preference. I really don't like LEDs unless there is a point to use them. For example, on Spidy I find the light to show a villian mode is engaged not very effective. Often times, I cann't tell if a villian is lite or not, unless I listen to the music -- music changes for villains, but appears to be overwritten if a mode is started. For Spidy, I have thought of placing an LED as it might make the light brighter and help the game play -- for me at least. I might also place an LED in an insert that doesn't stand out on it's own, but is important to game play. Using Spidy as an example, the Royale Jackpot doesn't really jump out -- it's tough to keep an eye on it and all the balls flying around. I've thought of putting an LED there. At this point, I haven't done any of this. On my games, unless they came with LEDs, they don't have LEDs.

At the end of the day, though, I really, really, really don't like the look of LEDs. Makes the games waaayyyy too bright. I find the games bright enough without going LED.

Duane

Quoted from websherpa

One of the things that puts some people off competitive play IS the competitiveness, or more accurately the aggressiveness and determination of some of the players.  Nothing wrong with that, all sports are dominated by spirited competitors.  Funny enough though,  it seems like the best "natural" players are "gentle giants"...  

I wouldn't go as far as to say the best players are Gentle giants.  I've met and watched allot of the best players play in person, yes alot of them are very cool, calm and collected while things are going right.  Watch what happens when something goes wrong.  

Also I don't think aggressive is the right work, I think passionate fits the bill better.  Aggressive to me sounds very dog eat dog, step on your opponents throat kinda thing, and I've found all the competitions I've been to very different.  Everyone is always willing to help and the atmosphere once you get involved has always been very welcoming.  Never have I spurned anyone in competition if anything I try and nurture it because competition is nothing if you don't have anyone to compete against.  

Quoted from Vengeance

Also I don't think aggressive is the right work, I think passionate fits the bill better.  Aggressive to me sounds very dog eat dog, step on your opponents throat kinda thing, and I've found all the competitions I've been to very different.  Everyone is always willing to help and the atmosphere once you get involved has always been very welcoming.  Never have I spurned anyone in competition if anything I try and nurture it because competition is nothing if you don't have anyone to compete against.  

I'll chip in with an agreement on this one (and I defintely fall in the social player group) .... although very competetive I've only see Adam be tough on himself never turning the competetion into anything other than that. On the board he may stir it up just a bit  

Aggressive wasn't exactly the right adjective, you're right. Annoyingly driven?  Passionate to a fault if you will.  But then I don't take competitive play very seriously at all (you know that by my attendance record!).  

All the TOPL and Church players, bar none, I've met have been very helpful, friendly, accommodating people.  

Perhaps by agressive I just mean they are frustrated: "Arrrrrgggghhh, the LED is blinding meeee!!"  

I'm no angel either (to my own machines)... ...but sometimes it makes me wonder what they are so worked up about, it's just a game.  

Or maybe I'm just jealous.  

Quoted from websherpa

Perhaps by agressive I just mean they are frustrated: "Arrrrrgggghhh, the LED is blinding meeee!!"  

That's a pretty accurate representation of exactly how I feel when I'm trying to compete on a machine fully done in LED's

Notice I've always said fully, as an example I think Mike at the Church has just the perfect balance of LED's on his CV.  Enough to make the colors really pop but not enough to blind the player.

LED's as accents to add something, but machines entirely in LED's, as I've said before, are unplayable.  

Quoted from websherpa

Pinball was (and still is in my heart) $0.25 a play (or less if it doesn't have a string cutter), you stack your quarters on the deck to reserve a next play, and you pray to god that all of the rubbers are there and the score reels turn, before you begin.  

WOW ! I like that line ! I forgot about the quarters staking part of it . Sure brings back good memories !!!  

I've half and half'd a couple game to see the difference, and to me, LED's are the cat's meow.  The difference in whites alone is so remarkable, not to mention it gives you the abiltiy to actually change the colours of some inserts, even coloured ones.  Once I can figured out how to re-write the game roms to include that new LED ghosting code, I'll be right as rain =)

I LOVE the 4+1 flashers on my Addams.

Aaron