I have recently gone through a very unsettling experience with another pinball hobbyist who was selling a machine.  In an attempt to be objective about the situation, I thought I would summarize the messages we exchanged and let people decide if the vendor was justified or not :

These exchanges all took place between Nov 14 and 15th I believe.


ME
Sorry about the delay...I have not been able to get on the website.
Yes, I would like to buy the game.  
Do I understand correctly, that you will bring the game to  ______ house ?  If you live close by, I can pick it up at your house.  

VENDOR
That's ok. You're the first one, …. we gone bring the machine.  
If you want to confirm on my post that you gone buy this game or I have no choice to take the first one who bring me the cash.   Tks

ME
The only problem is that I won't be able to get there by Friday night.  I won't be able to be there until Sat. afternoon.

VENDOR
That's ok for me,I prefer Saturday. I give you my adress _____________.  

ME
Okay, Saturday it is.   I will be going to ______ first to unload 2 machines, then I will go to your house.   Did you want a money transfer or do you want cash on Saturday ?

VENDOR
That's ok for me if you pay in cash Saturday  and confirm on my post that you gone buy my game. That's only proof for me to keep the game for you.  Thks.

ME
Okay I'll bring $$ on Saturday.  What do you want me to say on your post ?  Why don't you just put "SOLD" on your post ?   Do not worry...I guarantee that I will pick up this machine.  I understand that you are taking on a new project, so even if anything happened so that I could not make it, I would send you the money anyway

VENDOR
That's ok. Have good travel and I'm waiting for you next Saturday and I'm put "sold"on my game. my phone is ___________  .  see you


Then 3 or 4 days go by, when all of a sudden I get this PM :


VENDOR
Sorry mrniceguy the game is sold

ME
Hi _______ .  I don't understand.  I'm the one who is actually picking it up right ?

VENDOR
No I sold the game at friend of mine for consideration,  I'm sorry I has no choice


Is it me or did the vendor just pull the mother of all inconsiderate and deceptive maneuvres ?

I don't think I gave the vendor ANY reason to be concerned about this sale.   I also think my offer to send money electronically binds him to this sale.   In the world of business, our exchanges would have amounted to a contract.

So what's the verdict ?

You got screwed. Welcome to the club. If you want something, get it right away. First with cash normally wins. It sucks and I've been on the receiving end of that email as well.

In terms of legally, as no cash exchanged hands there is no contract.

Best thing to do is learn from your experience. Next time, put "Sold" on the post and then he will eat crow if he backs out.

Duane

Post his name, unless you think he's got dirt on you he can retaliate with. Then let it be up to the individual if they want to deal with him or not.

It happens.  You always run the risk when you can't get it right away and you're not a friend of the seller who will do you a favor.
It's not the first time and won't be the last time.  

Quoted from TwilightZone

Next time, put "Sold" on the post and then he will eat crow if he backs out.

He did actually put **SOLD** on his post.   So in his mind, it was sold.  I guess he should have put "SOLD....unless a friend of mine or someone local decides last minute that they want it."

What also pisses me off is that he acquired the machine only a short time ago and beat me to the punch by a matter of minutes.  Then turns around and sells it to someone else after all of our discussions.  

Is that the atmosphere we want in this community...I'll sell it to you unless someone I like better or who lives closer comes along ?

Quoted from mrniceguy

VENDOR
No I sold the game at friend of mine for consideration,  I'm sorry I has no choice

He made his choice ... to not stand by his word. Nice.

Hooooo boy... here we go again...

Here is an excerpt from a legal advice website:

Is an agreement made through email legally binding?

The answer is YES, an agreement made via email is considered in many states to be a legally binding contract. Under the UETA (Uniform Electronic Transactions Act) passed in 1999 a signature via email, fax, or voice recording is just as good as a physical signature made on a physical document. The terms of the UETA vary from state to state but in general if an agreement is reached between two parties and has been documented as such through email it is considered a legal and entirely enforceable contract.

An email contract in most cases provides everything that a written contract would, and in many cases can give a much clearer perspective of the over all deal. Usually when business is done through email you can see how the whole transaction took place step by step. You can see when and how the terms became agreed upon, how the parties interacted through the process, and in some cases when the deal was broken by one of the parties.
So should a deal agreed upon through email go south in many ways it offers more insight than a written contract would. Should the contract be violated and the parties have to go to court the judge can get a broader perspective on the deal in question and have a documented reference of the whole transaction. This obviously makes the judges and/or juries job much easier.

If you made an agreement through email with someone and they are trying to back out of or change the deal you should notify them of the terms of the agreement and that email is a binding contract. If problems still persist try coming to an agreement that is acceptable to both parties. If that still doesn’t work you should read up on your states current email contract laws and consult a lawyer.




This being written, you can fight for it since no valid reason was given to void the transaction, but do you honestly want to fight for that? There is the argument that no money exchange was done, but there still was a written agreement of a transaction.

Now... on the personal side... is it ethical? No. But many will argue that it is the seller's prerogative. He/she can do it, but their reputation becomes tarnished... especially in such a small community.

My opinion on this? Don't make it get ugly... you will end up regretting it later.

Quoted from mrniceguy

He did actually put **SOLD** on his post.   So in his mind, it was sold.  I guess he should have put "SOLD....unless a friend of mine or someone local decides last minute that they want it."

What also pisses me off is that he acquired the machine only a short time ago and beat me to the punch by a matter of minutes.  Then turns around and sells it to someone else after all of our discussions.  

Is that the atmosphere we want in this community...I'll sell it to you unless someone I like better or who lives closer comes along ?

It's crap and shows that whoever it  isn't a person of their word ... in trading you say done and your done end of story but unfortunately many in the community aren't worried about rep at all. IMHO kicking tires is one thing but done (sold) is commitment.

just my .02

It's not the atmosphere we want in this community, but it seems to happen quite often.

No but it's reality.  There's been numerous times I've wanted machines but local sales will always trump.  Sometimes, you win and sometimes you lose.  Not specific to this hobby really.

Some people honour their word. Some don't. Live and learn -- the seller is not honest and cann't be trusted. For example, I have held machines for members in the past. Unless I need the space, I don't really see it as a burden. I get to play the game until they pick it up, a win win in my mind That said, when I need the space I clearly state first with cash gets it.

Sorry to hear about your experience
Duane

Happens all the time through online classifieds like Kijiji etc..  But with the MAACA for sale board?!???  First time I hear of a seller pulling something like this within MAACA.  Bad move..  Wasn't hard to figure out who it is either.  The "new project" was a dead giveaway.

Mike

My advice is: GO! RUN WITH CASH IF YOU WANT IT! IMMEDIATELY!  Otherwise this happens more times than not.

I understand your point, but the only way of truely knowing that it's your machine is if you go get it with cash in hand.  If you wait, delay or just can't get there right away, you run the risk of a better offer (or other issue) beating you to the punch.

Whenever I sell games it's either "i'm leaving now to pick it up with the cash", or cash sale... anything else is just a discussion

I have had many an offer that has fallen through on the buyers side when selling my machines, as well as being a buyer backing out myself (abeit unintentional - Still sorry Gory!).  It's not fair to agree or hold items unless cash is exchanged.

If the guy accepted the $ Transfer you would have a legit beef (and a legal one), but in this case your probably lucky not to have had to do a deal with this guy - the machine may have had hidden issues.

Quoted from TGlover

... but in this case your probably lucky not to have had to do a deal with this guy - the machine may have had hidden issues.

For some strange reason, I highly doubt that.

The worst is if you make an agreement, then you drive out for an hour or more to find it gone. This hasn't happened to me, but it's a case I can imagine where "well, you should've got here sooner" doesn't fly.

Quoted from jonny_eh

The worst is if you make an agreement, then you drive out for an hour or more to find it gone. This hasn't happened to me, but it's a case I can imagine where "well, you should've got here sooner" doesn't fly.

Imagine if you already made arrangements and committed to driving for over 6 hours ... one way? And imagine if, hypothetically speaking of course, you already committed to delivering and picking up several pins for others? Wow, that might add to the disappointment.

As much as I find this happens much to often, and I can understand Mr. Niceguy's frustration, what is the purpose of bringing it up on this Forum if names are not mentioned? Shame those that can't keep their word or are dishonest or the other choice is to just move on. Pinball machines are like street cars...................their is always another one, you may just have to wait for a little while.

My two cents.

Over in the Cgcc forum there is actually an area for good vendors/bad vendors so that you can leave feedback on your transactions.

http://cgcc.ca/forum/viewtopic.php?t=17&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Perhaps we should have one here(at the new site) to weed out the problem buyers/sellers.

Quoted from TGlover

I understand your point, but the only way of truely knowing that it's your machine is if you go get it with cash in hand.  If you wait, delay or just can't get there right away, you run the risk of a better offer (or other issue) beating you to the punch.

I'm fine with that philosophy.  All I need is the seller to say " I'd prefer to sell it locally and/or sooner.  Tell you what.  If you can't come til next weekend, and I am unable to sell the machine by ( insert date here ) then I'll contact you since you were first in line."    All I need is to not live under the illusion that the machine was mine.  I'm only 10% mad I didn't get the machine....I'm 90% mad that the seller told me it was mine probably just to keep me in his back pocket in case someone else didn't come along.  

Most sellers realize that people may make plans that hinge upon picking up their machine and even spend money towards that end.  I'm going to Ottawa on my way back from Montreal.  Why you ask ?  Because I was going to bring back a Judge Dredd and when I saw TGlover's ad for shipping required, I figured "Hey, I might as well get a trailer and bring back his stuff as well.   So, I booked a hotel in Ottawa for the night.  Well, now that the JD was sold out from under me, I don't need the trailer so I cancelled it in order to save $50.  But I gave Terrance my word that I would pick up his items so I'm going anyway. PLUS, the money for the hotel is non-refundable  ( hotwire..good deals, but non-refundable ).  

Any seller who thinks that they can just back out of the deal and the world goes back to normal is pretty naive.

  

Quoted from HP5P

As much as I find this happens much to often, and I can understand Mr. Niceguy's frustration, what is the purpose of bringing it up on this Forum if names are not mentioned?

I was hesitant to act like jury, judge and executioner.  I kept names out it in order to lend it objectivity.  I have no problem naming names if that is considered fair play.  If Sparky gives me the go-ahead, I'll sing like a canary.

When you buy on ebay it gives you the chance to rank the seller and the buyer. Why can't we do something like that. If you are unhappy about someone you say so in a polite manner and it gives us a chance to know what happen.  Keep in mind that if someone gets a bad rep it can always resign under another name but it is a start.

I definitely want to know who this person is since I may later on try to make a deal. In my book your word is your signature on a contract you back out without specific reasons it tells a lot on your character.  

Enough said I am getting hot under the collar.  

I agree that you are only as good as your word. Unfortunately not everyone feels this way. However, word of mouth is the best way to grow a business (or not).

there has only been a few jd for sale on here in the past while and in that area that your going to as well.  
  so if people want to see who it is then do so.  i have had no regrets calling out people.  don't care what other think.
  usally we work things out sooner or later.  but i find it best for me to vent.  if i hold it in then i get worried later when doing a deal or something.  but if i let it out.  then i feel better and i am back to my old trusting self.  

Quoted from mrniceguy

I was hesitant to act like jury, judge and executioner...

Then you probably wouldn't of liked the Judge Dredd game...  

Quoted from sentinelking

Then you probably wouldn't of liked the Judge Dredd game...  

ZING!

So this is the original thread?

http://archive.maaca.org/s107351202.onlinehome.us/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1258202026/s-new/

Quoted from MrMikeman

First time I hear of a seller pulling something like this within MAACA.  Bad move..

Maybe the first time in public?  I heard of someone pulling the same thing with a Hyperball, just west of Toronto awhile back.  Buyer showed up and the game was already sold.  Doh!

Quoted from Monkeybug

So this is the original thread?

http://archive.maaca.org/s107351202.onlinehome.us/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1258202026/s-new/

Yup, that's it.

Sometimes it's a sellers market and mess happens. Not a practice I would prefer to engage in but having said that if there is more interest in something than availablity of that item things can get wonky. Call it greed or whatever other motivation, friendship, loyalty or other motivational factors kick in this happens. It's not pretty but it happens.

I have done a lot of online transactions... and i gotta say, People who screw you in small communities get it in the end.  I've had deals go sour, shipping problems, unhappy purchasers and traders (in themusic area mostly) but do my damndest to make sure everyone ends up happy... pissing off community members in such a small hobby is pretty rough.  FOr me, it's not worth the dammage to my rep to screw someone over a transaction. maybe the seller is less worried about his/hers.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Sometimes it's a sellers market and mess happens. Not a practice I would prefer to engage in but having said that if there is more interest in something than availablity of that item things can get wonky. Call it greed or whatever other motivation, friendship, loyalty or other motivational factors kick in this happens. It's not pretty but it happens.

Sure, things can happen or change, but there's right ways about going about it. I can't say what the right way to handle the situation would be in this case though since I don't know the other side of the story. It could be a very legit reason for all we know, and at least he informed mrniceguy that the game was sold, and didn't just find out when he arrived (that would suck huge).

CRAP!!!  I didn't know it was your Ottawa deal.  I didn't know you were going just for me!  I would have made other arrangements if I knew.  

To your point, yes, under the circumsatance after booking a trailer, hotel and doing a pick-up deal, the guy really screwed you.  I though it was a local sale.

You are a very respectable guy for not wanting to let me down and still picking my game up!!!!  All should know this!

Thank you!

shoot.  pick up my silverball mania at twilight zone and i will throw in $75 if its not out of your way.
  don't think sparky is done flash gordon yet.  but really i would be just putting things in the back room at the moment.  since i cleaned it all up.

Quoted from jonny_eh

but there's right ways about going about it.

Like I say not the way I would go about it but it does happen out there and little one do about it except chaulk it up for future reference.

Time and time again.....

Your experience sucks and the seller has little integrity (by English North American standards), but the value of integrity varies by culture and circumstance.  You can't paint everyone with the "cultural market standards" brush, but it has been my experience that if you deal in a foreign market, then you need to understand its cultural mores. This is not meant to slight anyone, its simply a difference of perception when it comes to "what's fair".

For example, we're all in a money bind these days, so there is little honour amongst thieves.  We have all been disappointed, you weren't swindled though,I believe that a contract is NOT binding unless money has changed hands; "consideration" is one of the conditions that need to be met before an agreement is considered a binding contract (I am not a lawyer) - so either you have to pay him money, or he has to deliver your machine for it to be a contract.

Reading the discourse, this deal had "back out" written all over it.  Despite his optimism for a sale to you, the seller warned you at least two times that first cash takes it, so it is logical to assume that a deal was brewing the entire time and that when it came through it was either logistically or monetarily more profitable to the seller.  Sellers get what they can get and buyers be ware. It sucks, but you are out a little negotiation time and some pride, but nothing else - there will always be another machine (take the ZEN approach, it will help reduce your blood pressure).

I agree with the rest here, either you hedge your own bets through deposits or posts that prove a deal is struck, or you RUN to get it, or you simply trust.  Some dealers are loyal to a T, some are loyal to a minor fault (which can be forgiven depending on circumstances), or some are downright sneaky snakes.  I think this sounds like the middle case to me.

Quoted from TGlover

You are a very respectable guy for not wanting to let me down and still picking my game up!!!!  All should know this!

That IS Mr. Niceguy!  But that Avatar freaks me out a bit too, it wasn't until I met him that I realized he has all his teeth!  In front, anyway.

Quoted from jonny_eh

Sure, things can happen or change, but there's right ways about going about it.

That being very true, it irks me, knowing Mr. Niceguy's integrity, that the seller just let it happen and roll off his back with what seems like little forethought into the consequences (the other side of this coin).  I have had to back out of deals before, but in all cases there was a good reason, I felt bad, really bad, and I tried to make things right, often offering up some cash as compensation.  

An apology and an honest reason would go a long way to a first step at reconcilliation.

It's definitely the avatar.  That's the only reason I haven't picked up your Flash yet.

Nah.. you got screwed.  

I call BS all the way, I don't know why more people aren't outraged that a long time member of this forum is acting this way.

Yes cash is King but the fact of the matter is Glenn offered to put a deposit, he put his money where his mouth was and the SELLER, not the buyer declined.  Powerslave told Glenn he didn't need the deposit that the game was sold and it was his.  The fact that he went back on his word and then sold the game out from under Glenn for whatever reason is BS, and shows the true character of this person.  I know Glenn personally, can't say I've ever met Powerslave, and knowing Glenn I know he is a stand up guy.  The second Powerslave turned down the deposit the onus was not on Glenn to man up with the cash, it was on Powerslave to keep up his end of the deal.

Yes these things happen all the time, on craigslist, Kijiji, mrpinball and ebay.  I personally expect more from this community and it's members and I haven't been let down yet.  This shouldn't be acceptable or fluffed off as just another deal gone bad, Powerslave isn't some newb on the site he is a long standing member here and should know better.

Quoted from McMean

Nah.. you got screwed.  

Well said.

I can understand if mrniceguy was wavering, saying he was going to 'drop by and take a look' but, no, he offered to pay immediately.

Quoted from mrniceguy

ME
Okay, Saturday it is.   I will be going to ______ first to unload 2 machines, then I will go to your house.   Did you want a money transfer or do you want cash on Saturday ?

VENDOR (Powerslave)
That's ok for me if you pay in cash Saturday  and confirm on my post that you gone buy my game. That's only proof for me to keep the game for you.  Thks.

It's unfortunate. This would have made a nice surprise addition to the ToPL meeting that Glenn is hosting this Monday. Oh well, there'll certainly be plenty to talk about.

Odd that we haven't heard from the seller yet?  As they say, no response admits guilt...  

I suggest to correct the (what I'll call - to be nice "Miss-Communication") and keep his good name, that the seller should man up and appologize, as well as cover the hotel bill.  

I'm throwing a 'little extra' in on my deal - just because of the intergty Glenn has shown.

Seller, any response?

Like every body know,my english is not very good
Comme j'avais dit a plusieurs reprises aux pm que j'ai reçu:premier arrivé,premier servi
Par 3 fois j'avais dit a mrniceguy d'ecrire sur mon post qu'il achetait la game,ce qui me donnait une garantie d'achat,il ne voulait pas disant qu'il voulait rester anonyme (pourquoi? ? ?) si t'aurais marqué ton nom sur mon post j'aurais été obligé de te la vendre bin beau mais ça me donnait pas une garantie d'achat,donc la game était toujours disponible,j'ai marqué vendu parceque y'avait sufisamment de monde qui la voulait pour la ramasser dans la semaine(6 ou 7 personnes local pour la ramasser en semaine) alors que ce samedi avec les heures que mrniceguy m'avait dit je n'etais pas sure de pouvoir etre la surtout avec le délais des heures qu'il m'avait donné n'était pas claire
Comme plusieurs membres sur maaca ça m'est arrivé souvent de perdre une vente ou un achat et j'en ai jamais fait un débat public sur le forum
Ton histoire de motel je la comprend pas tu m'avais dit que tu passait chez Gino pis que tu passais apres soit une distance de 20 minutes de route,si tu t'es louer un motel pour ça t'as pas vérifier avec mapquest c'est vraiment pas loin
Pis ton trailer ça fait 2 semaines que tu essaie de le rentabilisé en offrant la navette de game entre Toronto/Mtl
Selon moi j'ai pas fourrer personne premier arrivé premier servi
Pourquoi tu penses que je l'ai gardé seulement 3 semaine...
Fin de discution pour ma part
Mario

I think the problem here is that Mario and Glenn don't actually know each other, misread each other's cues and there is a cultural difference in deal-making to be considered. My take is that Glenn thinks Mario was dishonourable, and Mario thinks Glenn was lazy for not protecting his deal.  (If you don't understand how the French make deals, and how it differs from Anglo-Canada, then don't bother commenting.)

Both have valid points to consider, but in considering the "MAACA method" - I think that Mario has made more of a mistake choosing this path to defend than Glenn has made by making the assumption of a done deal.  I personally have dealt with and trust both, but I think that Mario should try to make amends somehow.

They need to hash this out in private, but its a good lesson for us all to put all your ducks in a row and having machine in hand before considering a deal "done".

Mes deux cents.

Quoted from powerslave

Like every body know,my english is not very good
Comme j'avais dit a plusieurs reprises aux pm que j'ai reçu:premier arrivé,premier servi
Par 3 fois j'avais dit a mrniceguy d'ecrire sur mon post qu'il achetait la game,ce qui me donnait une garantie d'achat,il ne voulait pas disant qu'il voulait rester anonyme (pourquoi? ? ?) si t'aurais marqué ton nom sur mon post j'aurais été obligé de te la vendre bin beau mais ça me donnait pas une garantie d'achat,donc la game était toujours disponible,j'ai marqué vendu parceque y'avait sufisamment de monde qui la voulait pour la ramasser dans la semaine(6 ou 7 personnes local pour la ramasser en semaine) alors que ce samedi avec les heures que mrniceguy m'avait dit je n'etais pas sure de pouvoir etre la surtout avec le délais des heures qu'il m'avait donné n'était pas claire
Comme plusieurs membres sur maaca ça m'est arrivé souvent de perdre une vente ou un achat et j'en ai jamais fait un débat public sur le forum
Ton histoire de motel je la comprend pas tu m'avais dit que tu passait chez Gino pis que tu passais apres soit une distance de 20 minutes de route,si tu t'es louer un motel pour ça t'as pas vérifier avec mapquest c'est vraiment pas loin
Pis ton trailer ça fait 2 semaines que tu essaie de le rentabilisé en offrant la navette de game entre Toronto/Mtl
Selon moi j'ai pas fourrer personne premier arrivé premier servi
Pourquoi tu penses que je l'ai gardé seulement 3 semaine...
Fin de discution pour ma part
Mario

Translation please (a REAL translation...not a babblefish translation)

Google translation is better for French than BabelFish IMHO.

Hate to stick my nose in but Mario probably got an offer for more money and did the uncool thing and backed out of the deal.

That machine wouldn't have been difficult to sell since the previous owner was Bruno (mindstorm8 and so the electronics for sure would have been excellent.  Also, he had added the Deadzone mod making it even more attractive.

I suppose there is also a slight chance it was a language issue, just to give the benefit of the doubt.

NOT COOL!    (nuff said)

Quoted from wbradley

Hate to stick my nose in but Mario probably got an offer for more money and did the uncool thing and backed out of the deal.

  

I really hate to stick MY nose in but that is a totally FALSE statement!!!

The machine was sold for the same price said to the first person with the money in hand. thats it and thats all. please dont make false assumptions

Why you ask??....  "I think" because  he got SHAFTED by a fellow member here who promissed to buy a machine and came out at the last minuite with some BS trade offer causing the loss of a sale and loss of money needed for another pinball.Ever since then its always been first with the cash gets it....no deposit,no lay away plan ,cash  and carry ,no BS. This my be a sad story but nobody likes loosing a sale(and worse ... money)
I have baught three pinballs off Mario and it was always "first with the cash" so I would pick them up within the same hour,Mario has always been very fair and never had a bitter deal with him.

Not taking sides on this one ,none of my bussniss. Just pointing out a few facts and yes that was one lame game why else do you think he wanted it out the door after three weeks ASAP??

Does the "first with cash" rule apply if Glen offered to wire the money?  Kinda "null and voids" all sympathy for the seller..  I'm just sayin.

Quoted from machine.slave

Does the "first with cash" rule apply if Glen offered to wire the money?  Kinda "null and voids" all sympathy for the seller..  I'm just sayin.

Exactly!  Mario doesn't have a leg to stand on Glenn offered money.  

Warren - Unfounded accusations like that are not called for, there is no proof at all that Mario took more money, all we can go on is the facts, the facts are Glenn had a deal in place, offered money and Mario sold it out from under him which is a completely lame thing to do.  

Quoted from MAGNETO

The machine was sold for the same price said to the first person with the money in hand. thats it and thats all. please dont make false assumptions

Not taking sides on this one ,none of my bussniss. Just pointing out a few facts and yes that was one lame game why else do you think he wanted it out the door after three weeks ASAP??

Hmmmm, sounds like you know a lot about the transaction. I'm curious, Magneto, do you have any idea who bought this 'lame game'?

Quoted from wbradley

Hate to stick my nose in but Mario probably got an offer for more money and did the uncool thing and backed out of the deal.

That machine wouldn't have been difficult to sell since the previous owner was Bruno (mindstorm8 and so the electronics for sure would have been excellent.  Also, he had added the Deadzone mod making it even more attractive.

I suppose there is also a slight chance it was a language issue, just to give the benefit of the doubt.

NOT COOL!    (nuff said)

Not cooler to supposed thing on somebody when you don't know what really happen...

1.The machine wasn't sold for more money.

2.The machine was for sell for few months before Mindstorm got it so it's not an easier machine to sell than other machine. The proof, somebody outside of Maaca bought the pin answering an outside ad so Bruno or the mod aren't really a factor because it didn't mean anything to the buyer.  Glenn was the only serious Maaca offer.

3.About the cultural thing... it's bull#$%? for me,  we have a "drama" every three or four months here about how a deal turned bad or something like this...  and if you checked, the majority of them aren't french/english...  


Communication was the big problem in this story, maybe a little language problem, Mario really wanted that Glenn commit himself on the thread but few PM after you can think he accepted Glenn's word only.   Mario stick to his cash first rules but didn't make it clear enough to Glenn.


Let's get positive, you saved more than 1K

I'm just wondering what is the TRUE meaning of first with cash....?

I've "bought" plenty of pins on a phone conversation with the seller....stating that I would pick up the game immediately....but the seller was like 6 or even 10 hours away....Imagine, arriving there and the seller telling you....

Well, I'm sorry, I just sold the game to the first with cash....you were second...close but no cigar, my friend!!!!

Heu!!!!!??? I drove 10 hours for this????? Are you kidding me or what?

Again, I'm just wondering what is the TRUE mining of first with cash....?

tartagliag

Quoted from OTTOgd

Hmmmm, sounds like you know a lot about the transaction. I'm curious, Magneto, do you have any idea who bought this 'lame game'?

I was told some old man who thaught it would look cool next to his pool table,No one from here.

Quoted from tartagliag

I'm just wondering what is the TRUE meaning of first with cash....?


tartagliag

You're right... it's not a friendly way to make deal... I'm still in the gang who trust people, maybe I didn't lose enough money yet

Guys I'm now taking heat for making an accusation.

I see someone busting out on an agreement. Based on the fact that Glenn and Mario apparently had a deal, unless there was some misunderstanding due to language,  then Mario just went ahead and sold it to someone else.  And also Glenn had offered to pay immediately by online payment, there was no way Mario was going to get shafted. Mario, you should have told Glenn first with cash gets it then he probably wouldnt have planned a drive to QC. Did you? ( If so I am an idiot and this whole argument is stupid). If you didnt, again that was uncool.

So, guys, tell me why he shafted Glenn. What is the motive? Why go back on your word? Geez, I have made deals with people and insisted that they do not send me money until the exchange. I totally put my faith in the deal because thats good karma and the good faith among hobbyests.

If I sound like a bad guy suggesting the only motive I could think of, then make me the villain.

Mario, if you didnt want to sell this machine to Glenn, you should have said so. Otherwise you should have accepted the wire payment and gone through with the deal, not busted out on him last minute. Again, very uncool. Even stranger if you sold to the other for the same price.

PS _ French people and English people are the same culturally when it comes to honour. In fact I would say the French are maybe a bit more honourable (in Canada).

Quoted from powerslave

Like every body know,my english is not very good
Comme j'avais dit a plusieurs reprises aux pm que j'ai reçu:premier arrivé,premier servi
Par 3 fois j'avais dit a mrniceguy d'ecrire sur mon post qu'il achetait la game,ce qui me donnait une garantie d'achat,il ne voulait pas disant qu'il voulait rester anonyme (pourquoi? ? ?) Mario

My French is certainly nowhere near as good as Mario's english.  Still, I am able to understand enough of this post to know that he has interpreted my hesitance to physically post that I have bought the game as a sign of indecision.   There are a couple of reasons why I didn't post and they have nothing to do with the desire to remain secretive.   Initially, I did not understand exactly what Mario was asking, so I didn't comply.  Instead, I just repeated that I wanted the game, I was coming Saturday and would he like the money.  

In the next exchange, he repeated the request and then I finally understood what he was asking, but then I didn't understand WHY he was asking me to do that.  Of all the machines that I see change hands on MAACA, I can't ever recall seeing someone post "I just bought so-and-so's machine".  I thought, why should I be the first person to do this ?  Everyone else just buys a machine and the seller puts **SOLD** on the post and that's that.  More often than not, we don't even learn the identity of the seller right away.  I wondered why I shouldn't get that same consideration of anonymity...not because I needed it...I don't care who knows what I have bought or sold...but because I just wanted to do it the same way everyone else has.  I thought his request was too much.  So, in response to his second request that I state publicly that I bought the machine, I simply asked him to do what every other seller does and put **SOLD** on the thread.  

Looking back, I still don't know how my public claim of purchase would have made the transaction more airtight.  If I was really a prick, it wouldn't matter to me whether I made my purchase public or not.  i would just assume the seller would tell everyone that I was the prick anyway.  That's the only reason I asked Mario to post SOLD himself.  Even though some other, super-secret motive would be more exciting, it's simply not the case.

I don't like the thought of language being the issue.  I am very aware of the face that the French -speaking people on this site make a far greater effort to converse in English than the other way around.  But when Mario was looking for a particular pin, he had people assisting him in his search, people that were a little more So today, I have a good taste in my mouth. I've met some good people and life is sweet.

Good night fellow pinball losers.

Quoted from mrniceguy

.... I've met some good people and life is sweet.

I hope I am one of them! A damn shame you and your family had to leave... I love having people over.

Quoted from wbradley

PS _ French people and English people are the same culturally when it comes to honour. In fact I would say the French are maybe a bit more honourable (in Canada).

... wouldn't be the first time I was guilty of it....


But my observation is NOT a condemnation of Quebecois or any other culture (some of my dearest friends live in Quebec); I am only pointing out, and I'll stand by it with experience to back it up, that there are cultural and class differences in how we perceive "dealmaking" and how we establish "honour" and trust.  It's not the same for all people.  And there are many people on both sides who understand how the other deals (and some take advantage). It only has to do with dishonour if you don't follow your own codes.  I am pointing out that there are cultural, ethnic, class, language and historically based differences in the general make-up of those codes. It's sociology 101. Maybe it applies here, maybe it doesn't.

Mario has explained that his policy was "first come, first served" and that Glenn lost because he didn't post that he pledged to purchase the game which was the only guarantee he'd accept.  

Mario seems to have followed his own code ("first with cash gets it") in the discourse, up until he made this statement:

"That's ok. Have good travel and I'm waiting for you next Saturday and I'm put "sold" on my game. my phone is ___________  .  see you"

I think it's fair to assume that saying "have good travel" "I'm waiting for you" and "I'm put 'sold' on my game" was a pretty fair indication in any language that he intended to sell the game to Glenn regardless of whether Glenn was going to make the deal public.  Or at least that's how we perceive it.

Warren asks "What is the motive? Why go back on your word?"   I wonder if we'll ever really know, maybe it was just a poor choice, or maybe Mario thought there was more to be gained from selling to this other gentleman and saving Glenn from Judge Dredd than would be lost by reneging.

Glenn is rightfully pissed off. The dirty laundry is now aired. Mario is now pissed off. Life and pinball trade will go on.... as surely AS THE WORLD TURNS...

Can I add my .02?

I think putting SOLD on your add after agreeing to sell it to a person means just that.

After that all 'Cash in hand', 'my wife's friend, 2nd cousin wanted it' BS need not apply.  It shouldn't mater if it's across the street or in another Province.  The culture/language thing is weak in my mind.  I think everyone knows what your word or a handshake means in every ethnicity.

Not sure if it's different out east but out west is still has some meaning.


My motto

'Say what you do and do what you say'

I would NEVER buy anything if there was any chance of it being sold from under me.

Quoted from Sparky

My opinion on this? Don't make it get ugly... you will end up regretting it later.

That ' s right and what ever that pin was , an other one will pop up sooner or later . Also , you know what ? Destiny ' s weird sometimes . You could ' ve gone to get that pin and get hit by a train on your way back !

Thank god you ' re still alive , Mr.niceguy ...

PS. The guy ' s a jerk ...

what happened to the good old days whre your word or handshake ment something....

Ughhhhh....I just spent too much time reading this long post...

I've dealt with Powersalve and it was positive, both he and Magneto both seemed like good guys. I've never met Mr. Niceguy. But I do have to say that Niceguy got screwed on this deal.

Powersalve agreed to sell it to him on Saturday, so Powerslave should have put SOLD on his ad, and waited for Niceguy to show up on Saturday. If Niceguy didn't show up on Saturday, then Powerslave would have a case in this situation.

I think Powerslave should offer some money to Niceguy to cover the hotel.....

p.s. Niceguy your Avatar makes me feel ill...

Quoted from Hippochrome

Ughhhhh....I just spent too much time reading this long post...

I've met Powersalve and Magneto and both seemed like good guys, and I've never met Mr. Niceguy. But I do have to say that Niceguy got screwed on this deal.

Powersalve agreed to sell it to him on Saturday, so Powerslave should have put SOLD on his ad, and waited for Niceguy to show up on Saturday. If Niceguy didn't show up on Saturday, then Powerslave would have a case in this situation.

I think Powerslave should offer some money to Niceguy to cover the hotel.....

Ya, good people can do the wrong thing from time to time. We all make mistakes. Let's just all be friends!

Quoted from Bmwman37

what happened to the good old days whre your word or handshake ment something....

No handshakes with the HINI (pronounced Hinney) floating around I guess.

Quoted from websherpa

wouldn't be the first time I was guilty of it....

Glenn is rightfully pissed off.

Agreed on both points above . I screwed up once on "pinball for sale" So , somebody ' s fealings were hurt . Some of you may ' ve noticed this event . I didn ' t sleep to well the following night . So , i PMed the seller and apologized about the fact , mentionned that next time i ' ll mind my own business . Apologies were accepted .

My mentality is that no matter what happens to me , there ' s always some positive out of it . In this case , 2 positive points came out of it .

1st , i ' ve learned that it ' s easy to hurt someone ' s feelings true forums and the 2nd one was that the matter created one of the most popular and hilarious thread on MAACA . The ................ thread ...   

BTW Hippochrome , the man behind the avatar , to my my point of vue , is a gentlman ...

I don't get why we dance around these things because we worry about people's feelings.  Take all your 'cultural differences' BS explanations and read this one more time:

Quoted Text

That's ok. Have good travel and I'm waiting for you next Saturday and I'm put "sold"on my game. my phone is ___________  .  see you

Why are people trying to explain this in any other way?  It is clear as day.  Don't deal with this seller unless you have cash in hand and you're standing in front of him, because his word (read above one more time if you missed it) isn't good.  How the above gets turned into a 'misunderstanding' is political correct crapola.