This isn't the first time this has come up.

I am seeing more descriptions of machines / backglasses as 9/10 and 9.5/10 lately?? I am pretty sure these aren't HUO machines being posted with this rating.

Do we have a definitive condition evaluation scale and criteria posted to assist MAACA members to evaluate their machines?  Maybe we should create one.

Is it just me, or do seller's really understand how to evaluate their machines properly or do they abuse this 1-10 scale system to hype sales?

I for one am not niave enough to take any description at face value without being face-to-face with it unless I already accept that the condition may not be as described and am willing to over-look it (pessimists are the happiest people on earth, because they are never disappointed).

P.S. Despite its timing, this post is NOT directed at ANYONE in particular, NOR any ad in particular. So don't even go there. I am satisfied with ALL the purchases I make, otherwise I wouldn't be making them.

If it doesn't already exist, maybe we should create, adopt and post a definitive rating system to help MAACA members to evaluate just how "accurate" their machine descriptions/ratings are?

I have seen these systems proposed:

1) Poor:  You know it when you see it.
2) Fair:  More than normal wear & tear.
3) Average: normal wear & tear.   unshopped condition.
4) Above Average: not new but no noticeable defects without close
                  inspection.
5) New or NOS:  Excellent.

----------

Condition Rating System:


10  The, say 30th unit of production, after all production inconsistencies have
been
    worked out.  Plus this say again 30th unit is the unit to which employees are
    being evaluated for Q.C.  Plus, this 30th unit is the one that the Designers
    pore over for review and admiration of their own work.
    (This unit and only unit would be considered "mint".)


9.5 Normal production units. 1/2 point lost because of production inconsistencies
due
    to employee error. (eg. not all bolts are tightened to same degree.)
    (These units would be considered "excellent".)


9.0 Brand new unit at rep./distributor/retailer.  1/2 point lost due to "shake"
test
    during transit.
    (This is the best that the majority can buy (at retail))


8.5 A brand new unit that has just been delivered to a "place" but was scratched.
    The scratch is evident on the backbox or cabinet.


8.5 A unit without scratches in a smoke free location for about 6 months.


7.5 In a smoking environment for about 6 months.


Any of above minus 1/2 to 1 point for any physical defect such as scratched
backglass, broken bulbs, bad flippers, bad rubbers, scratched/worn playfield.
Of course after fix, the unit regains its points but it should never really
surpass 9.5 or even 9.0.


------

A - Almost perfect condition, maybe dirty, little or no damage
B - Good condition.  Some damage, but easy to repair
C - OK condition, considerable damage (some costly), but repairable
D - Poor condition, extensive damage, may be repairable
F - Bad condition, probably only for parts, non-repairable

------

Thoughts or ideas?

Ratings are subjective and should be viewd as such.  What I think isn't a big deal might be a huge deal to you.

Take everything a seller says with a grain of salt and ask the questions you need to ask to be sure you are getting the right deal.  If they arn't willing to work with you then they arn't worth buying from.  

I always ask the same questions of a buyer on every machine.

Does the machine work, is everything working properly, Do the displays work fine, are there any errors on the machine, are there any cracks in the plastics or ramps and is there any wear on the playfield or cabinet.

Standard questions that everyone should ask every seller.  Regardless of how a seller rates a machine those questions along with detailed photos should be enough for anyone to make an informed decision AND have enough ammo to go back to the seller if something isn't as described.

This is my aproach to buying a pin and has served me well thus far.  

Good points Websherpa.

I like this sliding scale and it will definitely bring descriptions more in line. I have gone to look at machines that are "excellent" or pf is in great shape only to find out that is not the case. Thank god I have just a touch of patience. This of course will not weed out the folks that use hyperbole to describe their machines but it can help us to determine a more realistic value for the pin.

I agree that the value of a pin is reduced by the smells of cigarette smoke, burns, etc... even if everything else is working fine. Once the smell gets into the wood it is hard to get rid of. As a healthcare person, I subscribe to the clean air policies! But hey, what people do at home is their own business of course.

And when all is said and done, people will still pay what they feel the machine is worth to them.

HUO is even highly overrated.

Like anything if you don't take care of it, it will go to crap too.

Likely nothing coming from the factory is ever going to be perfect anyway. Take a decent pin that isn't blown or faded out. Put some new parts in where required, clean everything and stay on top of it. That is the formula to having great looking and playing machines. I would rather see a game completely gone over and kept up than a HUO one that hasn't been cared for in the past 6 years.

Everyone has different standards. Go look at a machine before buying to ensure it meets yours.

To me anyone that has the time to sit there and apply ratings to his pins, does it for his own ego.

When I purchase a pin, I only want to know the issues. Then I decide what it is worth. Ratings are so subjective that they cannot be trusted. What is a major issue to me, may be nothing to the seller. Everytime I have seen a pin that is rated 9+ by the seller, I have been disappointed.

My two cents is that you need to see a pin, never trust someone elses rating.

Quoted from HP5P

To me anyone that has the time to sit there and apply ratings to his pins, does it for his own ego.

When I purchase a pin, I only want to know the issues. Then I decide what it is worth. Ratings are so subjective that they cannot be trusted. What is a major issue to me, may be nothing to the seller. Everytime I have seen a pin that is rated 9+ by the seller, I have been disappointed.

My two cents is that you need to see a pin, never trust someone elses rating.

I'd definately agree with this.... well said. Although there are exceptions, sometimes some sellers are as picky as myself, and that makes for an EXCELLENT buyer experience in my opinion.

It's all interpretation and all depends on what level of expertise the seller has, as well as what machine it is. Some resellers LOVE to say that a machine is near-mint, but wouldn't know how to take the cabinet glass off (I have seen this...), but you have to take it with a grain of salt.

Like they say... one man's junk is another's treasure.

I do agree in a sense with the rating you are giving Wayne... resembles in a sense a ratings system for coin collecting. BUT, pinball evaluations are not as "controlled" as other collectible items.

Take for example a backglass from a Williams Firepower VS a translite from a Medieval Madness. Both are perfectly clean with no chips or flaking, except for let's say one small scratch in the lower-left corner.

In the case of the MM translite, this would put it as a 6 or 7 on the market. For the Firepower, even with that scratch, if it is not flaked or cracked and all the colors vibrant, it would be a 9.5 ... Why? becuase all Firepowers have crappy backglasses. So the condition of this backglass VS what is on the market gives it a high rating.

But I firmly agree with what was pointed out... the terms Home Use Only, New Old Stock, Mint, 10/10, Never-Routed, 100% Working, Flawless and other such terms are WAY overly used.

Mint should be literaly out of box in immaculate condition. Nothing less. The term "mint" is short for "FRESHLY MINTED", thus just fabricated. It must be EXACTLY as it was JUST BEFORE the machine was boxed. The second that a machine is uncrated and has a scratch or two, it is no longer mint.

I agree with what everyone is saying, seeing is believing.  And yet there are new members who have to get burned before they learn to be careful.  And I'm not talking about external sales, I'm talking about giving guidance to MAACA to MAACA members for internal trades and sales.  Some sort of reference point that is our own, that newbies and experienced members alike can point to and use to help honestly evaluate their machines before putting them up for sale.  After all the final selling price is up to the seller and has so many other factors involved that that could not be captured.  But what we can capture is a list of defects that are usually considered to devalue a machine (for most collectors).  Hey, if I see a solid 7 or 6 machine (by my own scale)  at the right price, I still go for it, even sight unseen because the title is of interest to me.

I would say that they don't even have to use the numbered scale (although that works nicely for some people), but some concrete descriptions (that becomes a sticky) of what we look for and how we evaluate machines (along the lines of how Vengance describes it).

Quoted from HP5P

To me anyone that has the time to sit there and apply ratings to his pins, does it for his own ego.

When I purchase a pin, I only want to know the issues. Then I decide what it is worth. Ratings are so subjective that they cannot be trusted. What is a major issue to me, may be nothing to the seller. Everytime I have seen a pin that is rated 9+ by the seller, I have been disappointed.

My two cents is that you need to see a pin, never trust someone elses rating.

Amen, brother.

Rating systems are (usually) a joke.

Quoted from Sparky

In the case of the MM translite, this would put it as a 6 or 7 on the market. For the Firepower, even with that scratch, if it is not flaked or cracked and all the colors vibrant, it would be a 9.5 ... Why? becuase all Firepowers have crappy backglasses. So the condition of this backglass VS what is on the market gives it a high rating.

See I can't get behind this because it is taking into account the subjective valuation of an item's worth (or rarity) in the rating.  To be more objective, if an MM translite has a scratch, and a Firepower has the same scratch but they are otherwise in perfect condition, then they both rate the same.  Anyone seeking these would certainly understand that a Firepower backglass in this condition is worth what it may be worth to them to pay, but at least they will also understand that a badly scratched, flaking tobacco stained translite/backglass, would have a much lower rating, even though it's purchase price may be higher due to rarity.  

I have bought sight unseen before and took a game with whatever it came as good or bad. It's a complete gamble and you have no one to blame if it goes bad but yourself. I went in a couple times eyes wide open to the implications of buying completely blind. Prices were deeply discounted to do so and you wouldn't hear me complain about it because all I would have to do is look in the mirror to see who was at fault.

If someone is claiming perfect than expect to pay a premium ++ if it is truely perfect. Building perfection doesn't come cheap.

I might have seen half machines in my life that were perfect. They pretty much sat on pedistals, you couldn't touch them and didn't have balls in them for fear of damaging that perfection. Boy what a load of fun those games were?

Gotta agree with cooke and vengeance and Sparky on this one. While the concept of a uniform rating system is great, there are WAY too many variables. Ignoring someone's conscience and deliberate over-rating a machine, experience has got to be one of the biggest variables. I just pulled out 2-3 machines that I bought when first collecting (within my first year - 5 years ago) I bought them as CQ or close to it and looked at them in person. Looking at them now, I would call them a 7+/- based on my experience today. How many of us have gone to look at a machine, bought it becasue it looked great and then weeks later notice an obvious defect that you can't believe you missed . I'll admit to that multiple times.

So best way is to either go see it and buy from a trusted MAACA seller who will honestly point out flaws, answer question etc to the best of their current ability, buy same way long distance or if you use long distance and pics and unknown seller, assume a condition of 1 and be happy with anything better

By the way, the previous coin box debate is a perfect comparison - for something as simple as a coinbox (mine are stacked somewhere )- it shows you how many different variables affect a pin's condition for collectors. Sell me the plastic pinfob for any machine I buy and I'm happy - keep the coinbox - who cares...

My 0.02
ME