Starting at the SS era (78 +) - which machine would you consider to be the most over rated? I don't mean crappy (cuz there have been plenty of those - see a future poll) - I mean a game that everyone but you seemed to like.

...or is this question to ambiguous? Era still to large?? (ie DM era?, Sys11 era?)

Kiss is overpriced but not overrated.

Banzai Run is overrated to me.

ok - I'll go first.

early 80s.
Roller Disco. This machine was always louder than the others - and 26 years later - I still cant get the 6 note 'attract mode' tune out of my head!!! What were those extra flippers for?? And it was a shade of pink an elephant would hate! (it was gigantic in its time - only Hercules was bigger I believe and that was part of the 'attraction')

late 80s
Golden Wings. Top gun...but on a $10 budget. This was at an arcade at Younge/Bay in the late 80s when I 1st moved to Toronto - and I still remember how tragically aweful it was - but that I had to wait to play it. I looked it up at ipdb and the backglass is even uglier than I remember. I should have shut it off so that no one else wasted their $.25.

mid 90s
I was outta the loop for this generation and just recently am being familiarized with them all. There were certainly some outstanding classics generated during this time. *Twilight Zone, AFV, AFM

late 90s
Cirqus Voltairs. The sound drives me crazy. If the ringmaster were a person - I'd choke him! Are the stages in the same order no matter what you do - or is it just me. (cuz that is a possibility too - there's a reason I missed the mid 90s) There are certainly some novel features about it...and its nice that its almost impossible to drain - but other than being so 'pretty'...I hate it. I would certainly rather be left alone with TZ. (please - leave me alone with a TZ!!!)

I certainly hope I didn't offend anyone!

Quoted from Monkeybug

Kiss is overpriced but not overrated.

Banzai Run is overrated to me.

..ooops. not 1st.  

I agree re: Bazai Run - I don't care for it. Never tried Kiss. (but would like to   )

I think that rolling stones and kiss are both overrated in gameplay by large. The price I can see, they're collectible titles.

Popeye

i would go for kiss as well and maybe even playboy.  but also there were all the tv based theme pins.  but i have owned them and would so again: six million dollar man, charlies angels and others.   but there was one good one from the tv themes that i really liked is buck rogers (love the captive ball)

Most monster type themes including Scared Stiff, Monster Bash, Elvira &...., Adams Family, CFTBL.  

Mind you a MB looks really nice with all those moving props on the PF!

Quoted from Pinbot

..ooops. not 1st.  

I agree re: Bazai Run - I don't care for it. Never tried Kiss. (but would like to   )

Just to clarify... Kiss is not overrated because everyone know the game looks better than it plays.  It plays like an average EM game.

1978-1983:

Tie between Kiss and Fathom. I just never got Fathom. It is one of the Blaalys with low production numbers, which meant that it wasn't a success. Kiss is just eye candy. Some other Ballys come close, like 6MDM and Supersonic. Yawn. And yes...I will be the first to admit... I don't care for Christensen's art. There...I said it.

1983-1990:

Banzai Run... whatever. People go apeshit for it... I couldn't care less.

DMD era:

Tie between Cirqus Voltaire and Attack from Mars (sorry Phil...). CV looks like nothing but eye candy to me... all flash, no smash. And people pay big bucks for AFM, but I don't like the pf layout... I personally wouldn't even pay 1800$ for a nice one. Sorry, it does nothing for me. Take out the funny one-liners, and it is a quite plain pin.

EM: Cp't Fantastic. Too much hype + high production numbers + eBay + idiots = high prices.
SS:KISS is, IMO, the most over-rated. Never been a big fan of band-themed games. They never seem to hit the mark.
DMD era: Circus Voltaire, all show, no go, IMO (may be due to lack of maintenance on the one I've played)

I could be wrong about this, then again I may not be right.

Both playboy the ballly and the Stern 200?

Quoted from Pinbot

Cirqus Voltairs. The sound drives me crazy. If the ringmaster were a person - I'd choke him!

I have been playing this one a lot recently because I really want, wanted, whatever on the fence again, one. I am beginning to agree with you on the sound though. Even though there are a lot  of sound samples on the game, whatever I am doing when I play it I keep hearing the same ones over and over to the point it's giving me a first rate headache.

KISS for sure.

Mr. Hide I thought Hollywood Heat overated as well, but for that matter the other HH gets waaay too much praise for what it is.

I have a CV and I love it. The sound was actually what drew me to it. It's happy, carnival like music. It's a nice change from alot of the darker pins. And the game play is awesome. Yes, I agree it is stop and go much like TZ. I love TZ and don't mind that at all. It's merely a matter of preference. Also, you can turn off the video modes if you like and that speeds things up.

In terms of overrated, for DMD I think Scared Stiff is pretty over rated. The game is fun, but it's far too easy and not alot of bang for the buck. Sells for about the same as AFM and there is simply no comparison. That's my opinion.

Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

It's happy, carnival like music.

Like O.D.'ing on Prozac kind of way.

Tah tahs score big value points.

Quoted from Sternlover

Whew! Glad to see no one is mentioning Stern pins.

Hmmmm, Over rated...

Shadow, I never get this machine, I even have one right now and I haven't even got around to setting it up! Way to Clunky for me on the diverters. Sold the last one I had and I will get around to giving this one a go eventually. I expect the same feelings (Great ball lock though, Very cool!!)

TSPP, Stacking modes is one thing, but when you get a few going on this game, everything is a "Jackpot" All of a sudden there is no real purpose. I don't miss it at all.

Revenge From Mars, Very funny for the first few dozen games, then very repetitive. I bought it from a guy, who bought it to go with his AFM, to go with my AFM, then I sold it to a guy to go with his AFM... etc.

CV, I blame this on the only one I ever played... I am still on the fence on this one, but leaning to the Bleah side.

Others I am on the fence about... BSD, ToM, SoFury, FT... I am sure there are more, but I can't remember right now...

But one thing to remember is different games of the same title can play very different from each other, even after a good shopping, something is always just "Different"!

Dave

By the way, I like these polls, Lots of fun and some interesting insights!! What's next??

Dave

Quoted from pins only

ToM

Don't worry, they only went out as far west as Winnipeg. Right Flashman?

You guys got all of our Roadshow's instead.

Hey guys did you hear that. Pins_only has a Shadow he isn't too interested in keeping. Nudge nudge!
Turn up the volume. If you can hear the clunk of the diverters, you are playing at a wimpy volume level. Try 22, that is standard setting on mine.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

Don't worry, they only went out as far west as Winnipeg. Right Flashman?

Well, I do have a ToM, Just haven't got around to it either, I want to shop it and give it a real chance, the only one I played was this one on route, and it really needed a shop back then too!!

Dave

My WPC Overrated top 3:

1. ToM (Nice machine to look at...and it ends there)
2. TAF (might be fun, but not $3000+ fun)
3-tie. Crevette...ramp ramp ramp...buy a DemoMan instead...widebody and half the price!
3-tie. ToTan...the most beautiful game...but too easy...and expensive...


My Sys9-21 overrated top 2:
Cyclone and Comet....BEURK!!!!

Other overrated "Rockers" are:
KISS, Rolling Stones, Ted Nugent, Guns 'N Roses...you pay for the name, but the game is well below par.

Elvira (EATPM+SS) are also overrated (price-pleasure point is down there...too much price for so little pleasure)

OK, My bashing is done for now...

Mes deux cennes,

Frosken

Quoted from frosken

My WPC Overrated top 3:

1. ToM (Nice machine to look at...and it ends there)
2. TAF (might be fun, but not $3000+ fun)
3-tie. Crevette...ramp ramp ramp...buy a DemoMan instead...widebody and half the price!
3-tie. ToTan...the most beautiful game...but too easy...and expensive...


My Sys9-21 overrated top 2:
Cyclone and Comet....BEURK!!!!

Other overrated "Rockers" are:
KISS, Rolling Stones, Ted Nugent, Guns 'N Roses...you pay for the name, but the game is well below par.

Elvira (EATPM+SS) are also overrated (price-pleasure point is down there...too much price for so little pleasure)

OK, My bashing is done for now...

Mes deux cennes,

Frosken

Hmmm, I agree with almost all of this, ToM, Fence.

AF, I love it!! Very funny and the best use of Knocker in a game, ever! Also, The Magnets are Awesome!

Corvette, Agreed

TOTAN, Haven't spent any time on it, Cabinet art looks Awesome, Translight always looks Dull to me!

Rockers, Agreed, although I haven't played a G&R for Years!

Scared Stiff, is easy, but Great fun, and completing the Spider is tough!
EATPM, I have never played but want to buy one (Anyone?)

Cyclone and Comet, Been way to long to judge and I don't own either (How did that happen?    )

Dave

mm, the price what a joke.i would never pay this much for a game.all i have to say is haha to people that paid that much.i rather have 2 or3 titles that are better.like ij and tz.

no my mm is not for sale so don't ask.fun game but price too insane. i'am looking to trade my mm for a down payment on a house

This from Mr. Pinball this morning...

Indiana Jones, 1993 Williams:  9500.00
Collector quality and very rare to find one in this condition the game has very low plays is HUO and perfect in every way. Ron  Phone:  734-944-7795 Ann Arbor, Michigan 48108

If that's what HUO pins are going for now, I will add HUO as being over rated. While I can see paying a premium for a pristine machine. More than double is just insane.  That's almost $11,000 CDN, folks! And you haven't even got it across the border at that point. Ouch!

Duane

People can ask whatever they want.  Just like the $2500 Super Mario and the $5000 Kiss that I recently saw for sale in Toronto.  Will they get it? Doubt  it.  But then I guess people feel less guilty when they say its HUO and asking too much money.

I guess if Harrison Ford personally delivered it, it might be worth $9500.

Yes, but the problem with people asking such prices is that it artificially inflates the market for a brief period. It happened to me recently when looking at a machine that was worth maybe $1700. The seller said "well, there's one on Mr. Pinball for $2500 and three on eBay with starting bids of $2400 and up..."

And while that may be true, those machines likely aren't flying out the door. The result is that I walk away from the machine and the seller gets stuck with it for a while until he either a) finds some sucker that doesn't know any better or b) sells it to someone else a few months down the road for the price I had offered in the first place.

Either way, nearly everyone loses in one way or another.

and tz at $8500 from the same seller, u.s that is.



don't you love people that use ebay as a price guide.

Quoted from cooke

Yes, but the problem with people asking such prices is that it artificially inflates the market for a brief period. It happened to me recently when looking at a machine that was worth maybe $1700. The seller said "well, there's one on Mr. Pinball for $2500 and three on eBay with starting bids of $2400 and up..."

And while that may be true, those machines likely aren't flying out the door. The result is that I walk away from the machine and the seller gets stuck with it for a while until he either a) finds some sucker that doesn't know any better or b) sells it to someone else a few months down the road for the price I had offered in the first place.

Either way, nearly everyone loses in one way or another.

I call this scenario the "Bubble Buster". You tell them a price, they say No Way, then they check somewhere else and find out you were right and so sell it to the second person because you might say "I told you so" or because the other person is already there.

Dave

...Any pin over 3000$, unless new. There is no justification for a 10000$ Medieval Madness. First off, they are not so rare. You still see them on location. Two, the pin didn't get twice as good since released. Three, I don't believe that the demand is that high... I think it is because there are people willing to pay a crazy price.

Same principle for those NIB Black Knights at 6000$US. The second the buyer took it out of the box, plugged it in, rang a credit and pressed start, he then has a 2500$ pin. Worth it?

If I had 5000$ to spend, I rather get 3 very nice older pins than get a semi-nice Medieval Madness. Just my opinion.

CV, ToM, AF, AFM, SS, MB, TOTAN - how these games ever made this poll I will never understand.  I'm surprised that Creach and CC wasn't thrown in their for good measure.
Some of these games maybe overpriced, but they're certainly not overrated.  

These games have the high rating that they have for good reason.  They deserve it, in fact they are examples of some of best pinballs ever made.  Period.  This opinion is not mine alone, but shared by pinball enthusiasts and collectors all over the world.  They have achieved this status due to their innovative features, playfield & cabinet art, sound & speech and of course their remarkable gameplay.  

I think some people are confusing their rating with their affordability.  It's too bad in a lot of cases these machines are so pricy, but that's what the market dictates, which incidentally is primarily determined by availability and what collectors are willing to pay.  In a lot of cases these machines are selling for a lot more that I want to pay as well, but it doesn't make me want them any less either.  

Yeah its pretty easy to knock a Tom or an AF until you have one in your gameroom in perfect working order and you can witness your family and friends getting an incredible "Buzz" when they come over and play these games.  I myself still get a "rush' out of playing these games, and receive a lot of personal enjoyment sharing them with family and friends.  

I think to be able to really be in a position to accurately rate these games, you have to own them first, shop them out (clean them up) and play them yourself and also see how much family and friends enjoy them.  If you choose to hold on to them, then, yes they make the grade.  If you choose to sell them because they didn't measure up, then yes, I'd be interested in hearing your rating on a game.  Either that or you have to spend time on a game that is in great working order and you understand the game inside and out and have at least gotten to the wizard mode.

You have to have more than a couple of plays on a top game to knock it.  Games played on location are usually played on poorly maintained pinballs, and as a result you're usually not really in a position to judge the game anyway.  Try playing one of these games at a collectors house with a little guidance on how the game plays, and give it a chance and then see what you think.  Oh yeah, did I mention that you need to have the sound at a level where you can actually appreciate it. This really adds to the experience and I have yet to play a game on location where the sound is loud enough to actually enjoy it.

I myself was pretty quick to judge the Shadow without giving it half a chance (I only played it a handful of times but really didn't like it), but I too realize that I need to spend way more time on this pintable to decide whether or not it will make it into my gameroom.  I obviously didn't get it, but I would really like to see what I'm missing.  There are just too many people who are impressed with this game.  

With that said, the one game that comes to mind that I feel is overrated is Judge Dredd.  I had this pin in my collection for about a year and the novelty wore off for me with this pin after about two weeks.  Is it still a great pin.......yes it is (All Williams/Bally "Dot Matrix" pins are for me or at least all the ones I have tried), but I can't see why it has the following it has. I'd much rather have a Jack-Bot or Fish Tales for about the same price.

                                      flashman    

        

Quoted from flashman

CV, ToM, AF, AFM, SS, MB, TOTAN

Yeah its pretty easy to knock a Tom or an AF until you have one in your gameroom in perfect working order and you can witness your family and friends getting an incredible "Buzz" when they come over and play these games.  
        

Nicely said!!! I agree with your comment about really playing the game before judging it. For example, I was not fond of ToTAN as I thought all you have to do is hit the Genie, hit the Genie, etc. I played a poorly maintained game and it was super easy. On the weekend, I played a nice example. What a difference. Hitting the Genie was actually risky as the ball could come SDTM. This forced me to learn the rules a bit and understand what was going on. Man, what a great game. Playing a location dog doesn't reflect the play value of a nice example in a collector's home. Now if only there was another $2,500 TOTAN !

Duane

Quoted from TwilightZone

Now if only there was another $2,500 TOTAN !
Duane

You all had your chance. I didn't see anyone else willing to do a 16 hr round trip in a fricken snow storm.

For that matter Ottawa is closer.

Flashman we should round it out will all A list games, that is why they are so desireable; because all collectors think they suck.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

You all had your chance. I didn't see anyone else willing to do a 16 hr round trip in a fricken snow storm.

I tried to get that machine, but it is more like 50 hours around for me!!  

Has anyone ever set a guideline for what would be considered "A List" games?

Dave

Quoted from pins only

I tried to get that machine, but it is more like 50 hours around for me!!  

Sure you don't want to do something with that MB?

Quoted from pins only

Has anyone ever set a guideline for what would be considered "A List" games?

Dave

You know it's A list when everyone is crying over the price.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

You know it's A list when everyone is crying over the price.

Damn right  

If they were so overrated, i would assume the prices would go down and that nobody would buy them...

Quoted from necro_nemesis

You know it's A list when everyone is crying over the price.

Yeah, I guess that about sums it up, well put Necro!

                                                                        flashman

Quoted from Azatotht

If they were so overrated, i would assume the prices would go down and that nobody would buy them...

I disagree...

Some of the 'A' list games are GREAT and if I had the coin, I would have some in my basement...

The games that "I" stated that are overrated ARE overrated in my books.


To each is own...not everybody likes the same things on machines, thus what I call a turd might be gold for someone else...

For me, the factors I'm looking for is speed, difficulty and reliability...then it's "bang for the buck" (err for my lack of bucks)...look and theme are third...

Although I got bored on my machines fairly quickly before, I'm trying to get games that will stick in my basement for a while...and I think that after my Big Game is sold, I'll be able to shop my 'keeper trio'...although most of non pin friends wouldn't agree with their sub-60-second game...every time...


Mes deux cennes,
Frosken

Quoted from frosken

The games that "I" stated that are overrated ARE overrated in my books.

Guess your books must read a lot like Grimm's Fairy Tales then eh?

not sure about CV being overrated, but its a matter of personal taste. it was a blind buy for me, i had never played one until i got mine working. i think CV is the best game i've ever owned. as far as sounds go, the ringmaster can get a bit annoying but not enough to consider this a major fault. the overall sound package i find is one of the best and most varied in pinball.

i find MM is a little bit overrated, but not by much. MM is a great game. however it's a top 10 pin for me, not "best pin evAr!".

Here's IMHO, how a game gets over rated:

People are sheep and usually follow the sheep(s) that bleat’s the strongest.  Just look at this forum for blunt examples...

When a collector is looking to buy a new game, he usually goes on RPG or Mr.Pinball and queries a few titles (Flavour of the month) and looks at opinions and reviews.  Usually, the purchase is made on these opinions, as there's not many MM or MB to play locally.  Now generally, people who post opinions on RPG are really HOT or really COLD about the game.  I’ve yet to see totally impartial review.

Even more surprising his people that one week glorify a game and the next week trashes it...

A game is always super fun:

A) When it's in your collection
B) When you’re trying to sell it
C) When it's in somebody else’s collection and you’re a suck a** that does not care to be honest cuz lying will bring you more advantages.

I think I'm allowed to give my opinion on games...  I owned most of them (Williams/Bally DMD) at one point in the last 5 years including a few NIB Sterns.

Any game you buy you will eventually get bored of in a home used environment...  Some quicker then others.  At the end of the day, this is what you have to ask yourself:

Would I rather play 2 B list games or 1 A list?  There's no way anybody here can state that ANY game is twice the fun then two B list.  Anther question you may want to ask yourself, how much $ do you want to invest in your collection.

Slamming Frosken or Sparky for giving is opinion based on the fact that they made a conscient decision not to drop 3000$+ on a game is uncalled for.  The guys probably played more pinball then the majority of people here all titles combined…

Some people like the bling bling thus being able to say: “Hey everybody, look at me, no hands!!!”   To each is pleasure.

Marty

I hate to perpetuate an argument, but I have to say that SpaceCadet nailed it right on the nose. A lot of people do follow trends and tend to inflate the demand. It's a sad fact. Here are a few examples:

Stern's Iron Maiden. People have been freaking out on this pin for years... it is very much sought after. Why? Because of the mystery around it for starters. Very few have seen or played one, and the art is fantastic, and it has multiball and 2 levels, and loks cool to play and so on and so on. They fetch well over 1500$ even beat up, twice the rate of a standard Stern. But then, ask anyone who has owned or played one (like me). Gameplay is simply OK, so they get sold a lot.

Medieval Madness... yes, I have played it, a really fun pin... but if Williams was still in business and making standard format pins, would it still fetch 10000$? No. The fact that it is a fun pin AND that OMG!!!! IT IS THE LAST REAL WILLIAMS PIN!!!!, some people go crazy and pay a ridiculous amount, put it in their gameroom, play it a while, and then as SpaceCadet mentioned, get bored with it and leave it there as a trophy for the people that can't afford one but think it is simply awesome!!!

My point is that you don't have to spend a goddamn fortune to have a great pin. Ask Mrhide what pinball he has got the most play at the meeting and was the most talked about... no, not TZ.... not Funhouse... but a Bally Medusa!!! Just because it costs a lot, doesn't make it the best pin ever. Personally, I think TZ kicks MM's a**... and it is less than half the price.

In conclusion, I must say that I am dissapointed about certain comments made, because as the question implies, it is an OPINION. Opinions are personal and should not be interpreted as a cold hard fact. Yes, I did say that I believe that any pin over 3000$ is overrated, but then again I greatfully respect any collector that has nothing but the so-called A-list pins because he or she got what they wanted. I hold the same respect for them as I do for the collector that scrounged up a whole summer to buy a busted D-list pin and is proud as can be about it.

Besides, knock me all you want... at the end of the day, I never lose sleep over my decision of spending thousands of dollars helping other members and having nothing but B and C-list pins, than having a few WPCs for myself. This is my opinion, my choice... and so should the opinion of others be just as respected.

And for the grand finale, I can't finish this post without just a hint of aggressivity!  


And if you don't like my opinion, nor some of others,  




Sparky

PS: Hey SpaceCadet... don't change that avatar... it cracks me up every time!!!

Aw for Christ's sake guys... how many smiles do I have to put for you to realize that it is a joke???

Quoted from Sparky

And for the grand finale, I can't finish this post without just a hint of aggressivity!  


And if you don't like my opinion, nor some of others,  




Sparky

2 Smilies and an 'up-yours" which is smiling also... What... just because a guy is named president, he can't have a sense of humor??? Did some of you actually read the post right up to that point? Or did you simply read the last line? Some of you need to take a lesson and see what a REAL nasty post is... please visit RGP and you will get the idea. You will never get that from me. Not my style. But to question MY ethics, THAT gets me going.

Lighten up, guys.

Quoted from 58

Would I rather play 2 B list games or 1 A list?  There's no way anybody here can state that ANY game is twice the fun then two B list.

Quite simply, yes there are quite a few A games that I would rather have than any 2 B titles. It's not about the money. It's about the gameplay. For example, TZ is simply the best game ever made in my opinion. It is now considered an A game. When I bought mine it cost the same as GetAway, White Water, Shadow, etc. BUT I bought it. Now I could easily sell my TZ and buy any 2 B title games, but I would never, ever do that. Why? One A is way better than 2 B. Now I won't disagree that there are other examples where I would side with you. For example, to own a MM I would have to sell CV AND IJ. Not worth it to me, but to each his own. I certainly understand why MM demands the money that it does. It's an awesome pin.

We can talk in circles about A vs B. It's very easy for others to say things like people are sheep, following the herd, yada yada. I've been collecting for 10 years now. I've owned over 50 games and played a bunch at the different shows so I feel I have as valid opinion as others. A titles are A titles because of demand. People like the games. Doesn't mean every A title is for an individual person. There are quite a few A titles that don't do anything for me, but I understand why they demand the price they do.

Duane

Well put Duane,

I've been collecting and playing pinball for quite some time myself and my collection is more than a few years in the making.  I'm not trying to keep up with the Jones' either, I just want a top collection of pins for friends and family to enjoy. When  adding pins to my collection I usually make up my own mind as well and usually search out pins that have more to offer, and in most cases that boils down to Williams/Bally, DE, or Stern DMD pins.  I would also like to have a few desirable EM's and a few Sysem 11 games so that I can have some fine examples of pins of all era's.

                                        flashman    

                                      

Most over-rated, all combat games since Karate Champ, i never undertsand those kind of video games .... !!!  

Quoted from TwilightZone

Quite simply, yes there are quite a few A games that I would rather have than any 2 B titles. It's not about the money. It's about the gameplay. For example, TZ is simply the best game ever made in my opinion. It is now considered an A game. When I bought mine it cost the same as GetAway, White Water, Shadow, etc. BUT I bought it. Now I could easily sell my TZ and buy any 2 B title games, but I would never, ever do that. Why? One A is way better than 2 B. Now I won't disagree that there are other examples where I would side with you. For example, to own a MM I would have to sell CV AND IJ. Not worth it to me, but to each his own. I certainly understand why MM demands the money that it does. It's an awesome pin.

We can talk in circles about A vs B. It's very easy for others to say things like people are sheep, following the herd, yada yada. I've been collecting for 10 years now. I've owned over 50 games and played a bunch at the different shows so I feel I have as valid opinion as others. A titles are A titles because of demand. People like the games. Doesn't mean every A title is for an individual person. There are quite a few A titles that don't do anything for me, but I understand why they demand the price they do.

Duane

All that said. If I have a limit of 10 pins in the house, eventually as a collector they will become all A list pins. If I had more space then B's would stay too. The B's I have I am not tired of so there is no fire in the kitchen to get them out of here ASAP.

It will happen one day, that I am absolutely certain of. Just what that day is I am uncertain of. It is a function of wanting something new and B's are the first to go then.

There are a few B's still that need to pass through here as well before I put my feet up and retire from collecting.