I may do a deal for a rather large building in Toronto approx 25,000 sq ft, 2 floors. What I would like to know is if there is any interest for space from anyone to help offset costs. It has a loading dock/freight elevator and lots of space. Also, does anyone think there would be sufficient interest in;

1. Using part of one floor as a consignment sale area, with a monthly auction at the end of each month, as well as perhaps a swap meet, with fees set at 25$ for the month per game, including auction fees + storage

2. Providing space for storage.. price TBD

3. Providing access to restoration facilities, eg. paint, graphics( all the gucci kit), and electronics tools

As well as that, any other suggestions, re  web site for museum(content), pricing for unlimited play, games that belong in a museum, and anything else that could make this become a reality would be appreciated. Deal may go down on Mon for the building

I think everyone on this board has had this dream at one point or another
(...I know I have... ! )

And as much as I'd like to see this happen, the financial reality of something like this often kills any such attempt.

Bluntly put, I think it's a great idea, but not financially viable.
You'd make alot of people happy and you'd probably greatly enhance the collector community,
but you'd probably end-up losing money.

I once considered something like this, where people would pony-up cash
for "shares" in a building which would then give them free space access equal to their percentage of "ownership".

The cost per square foot was too high, and no-one would want to fork over $5K+ for a 10x10 space.

( I also remember Sparky looking at an old furniture store in Montreal.  It was something like 80,000 sq/ft for $300,000.
That too had alot of people dreaming, but never got off the ground )

Then there is the issue of maintenance costs (heating, hydro, insurance, etc... ),  it adds-up quickly....

So as much as I'd like to support you in your venture,
the only comment I can make is,  ...do it for your love of the hobby:  don't do it for money...

That said, I really hope you can make it happen.

Good luck.

Cheers,
Steph

I hear you, believe me I do. This place is 20 cents a square foot though. Its hard to pass up.

Quoted from gjd

I hear you, believe me I do. This place is 20 cents a square foot though. Its hard to pass up.

$5000  for a  25,000 sq/ft building in TO ?

What's wrong with it ?
Do you get walls and a roof for that price ?

Hell, if you don't take it, I will .... in a heartbeat !  


Steph

It is a bit of a fixer upper, but like I said, that price makes it hard to pass up...and it has walls too!

Quoted from gjd

I hear you, believe me I do. This place is 20 cents a square foot though. Its hard to pass up.

Is that 5000$ per month in rent?

Surely not 5000$ to purchase... no way...

5000 per mo in rent

Quoted from gjd

5000 per mo in rent

Ahhh...,  OK, that makes more sense...

For a second there I thought you were saying it was $5000 to purchase.

...I was about to drive down to TO with a certified cheque to buy the thing myself !  


And although $5000/mo in rent is pretty good,  that's still ALOT of money for storage...
(...I gave up my $100/mo storage unit because I could not justify the expense ...)

Keep us posted...

Cheers,
Steph

OK... this has been discussed MANY times. You can have members pitch in for that, but I don't know how many would come forward.

I was toying with the idea myself for a long time and came to the conclusion that very few were willing to pitch in and have some or all their games stored there, and have like a club house... kind of like what you see on CPR's website about the group in Brazil.

With this in mind, the population of TO members is very large and they do have the TOPL running well... that might be an incentive to open up a place.

Now, I don't know how the TOPL works, but if you charge 50$/month per member for unlimited use of the facilities, that might take a chunk out of the expenses. If we had something like that here, I would GLADLY pay 50$ and have a couple of machines there. That would make meetings phenomenal!

This, of course, can happen provided members come forward....

Quoted from Steph

( I also remember Sparky looking at an old furniture store in Montreal.  It was something like 80,000 sq/ft for $300,000.
That too had alot of people dreaming, but never got off the ground )

Actually, the building I was looking at for an ultimate arcade was this one:

http://www.icx.ca/PropertyDeta.....p;PropertyID=7627042

It was 895000$... now it has dropped to 695000$. I am still dreaming.

This is more realistic, but it is far:  

http://passerelle.centris.ca/R......ICX.CA&Langue=E

Quoted from gjd

I may do a deal for a rather large building in Toronto approx 25,000 sq ft, 2 floors. What I would like to know is if there is any interest for space from anyone to help offset costs. It has a loading dock/freight elevator and lots of space. Also, does anyone think there would be sufficient interest in;

1. Using part of one floor as a consignment sale area, with a monthly auction at the end of each month, as well as perhaps a swap meet, with fees set at 25$ for the month per game, including auction fees + storage

2. Providing space for storage.. price TBD

3. Providing access to restoration facilities, eg. paint, graphics( all the gucci kit), and electronics tools

As well as that, any other suggestions, re  web site for museum(content), pricing for unlimited play, games that belong in a museum, and anything else that could make this become a reality would be appreciated. Deal may go down on Mon for the building

You should talk to Mike Hanley at the Church Of The Silverball. He might have some interesting advice for you like....

DON'T DO IT !

I don't know this for sure, but I suspect the "Church" was more a place to store games, although he does have some games set up and holds many events there.

Quoted from Bally Boy

You should talk to Mike Hanley at the Church Of The Silverball. He might have some interesting advice for you like....

DON'T DO IT !

??

I never got the feeling from Mike that he regretted his current decision to have the place that he has.  

Oh, I never got that impression either Adam, don't get me wrong... I just think if you're in it to make any money... well the pinball people know how that goes.

I love the fact that Mike has been able to make it work for so long..... I really shouldn't put words in Mike's mouth..... strike that last comment of mine from the record. Prehaps he would tell him it's the greatest idea ever.... how would I know.

I personally am understanding of the "dream". Reality has a way of crashing down on these ideas but I wish you all the luck in the world.

Hey, Obama's the president now and who would have thought that was possible, why not aim for the stars!

Oh ok, yea I know Mike treats that place more like a cottage then a buisness and I'm sure makes enough to cover his costs but I doubt he is turing a profit on the place that is for sure   I just thought he was losing money or something.  

So yea I guess I'll agree with everyone else, if you want to do it for yourself as a hobby that can sorta pay for itself, but if you are looking to make a profit and make thisyour day job, I don't see how it could work out, sad but true.  

If you can break even and have virtually unlimited space to collect, set up and work on machines, I don't see the down side. You have to treat it still as a hobby and want to do it for yourself, not the money.

Quoted from necro_nemesis

If you can break even and have virtually unlimited space to collect, set up and work on machines, I don't see the down side. You have to treat it still as a hobby and want to do it for yourself, not the money.

But there is still effort beyond the hobby.  I like Mike, nice guy, but I couldn't do what he does.  Dealing with Parents and their kids for birthday parties.  No friking way not worth it to me.  I'd much rather have a smaller collection, then a huge one that I had to rent out to maintain.  I find as soo as it start to feel like work I start to lose interest in it.  

Quoted from Bally Boy

Oh, I never got that impression either Adam, don't get me wrong... I just think if you're in it to make any money... well the pinball people know how that goes.

I love the fact that Mike has been able to make it work for so long..... I really shouldn't put words in Mike's mouth..... strike that last comment of mine from the record. Prehaps he would tell him it's the greatest idea ever.... how would I know.

I personally am understanding of the "dream". Reality has a way of crashing down on these ideas but I wish you all the luck in the world.

My ears were burning!  i heard my name.   Ok, so i will throw my 2 cents into the pot...

I have been collecting for 30 years now.  Over time we out grew the house, then several public storage units, then we rented a small 800 sq ft warehouse.   Christine and i had a small route, with about 12 bowling centres around the gta and north to aurora, newmarket, stouffville.   I loved doing it, but as a hobby not as my primary source of income.   15 years ago we decided we wanted to get a place to house the collection.  Not just storage but have some amount setup for our own benefit.    10 years ago we bought was has become the Church of the Silver Ball.   We've opened for party rentals/big brothers/big sisters/scouts for about 9 years.   The business does make a profit, and could easily make more if we chose to allocate more time to it.   But hten it is no longer a hobby, it is a full time business and that is not my desire.  I just want my hobby to make enough to afford me to buy the collectables i want.   Like the new Data East Tommy i picked up in December.   It is the same game as the production Tommy, but with slightly different artwork.  i believe it is an early sample.  

Those who attend the tournament this saturrday (doors open at noon!) can see it.   haven't decided if i'll turn it on or not....

Back to the topic at hand.
I believe a pinball museum *could* work.   Location is key.   No one goes to play pinball anymore.  If they stumble on them, they might give them a try.   so if you find a tourist location, with a constant supply of new people (cn tour, queens quay, niagara falls, etc) you could do it.

25000 sq ft is huge.   we have 2800.  could use 5000.    The property taxes and the heating bill alone will kill you.   I pay $500 a month to the city of mississauga.   $5000 per month includes what?
electricity and water?  probably not.   Insurance?  nope.   so now you are at $10000 per month.   How is the infrastructure?   The furnace?   the hvac in a building is larger and more expensive than your home system.   Check it out first.    We just had a door replaced.   $700.  it adds up fast.   Offer $5000 per month including taxes and all utilities and see if it flies.

What about insurance on the games you are storing?  For $25 a month if a game gets damaged, who pays?  

I am the last person to discourage anyone from following their dream.   Just make sure you can sustain it.

i would love to see a pinball museum in Toronto. i'd go!

Christine and I love having our place.   We wouldnt do it if we didnt love it.  It is a tonne of work.

if you want to discuss it more, email me.
thechurchofthesilverball@hotmail.com

mike

Thanks for posting, Mike.

I for one was pleased  to see your description/view of the operations at " Church " and your opinion on the " Arcade Museum ".....

If this Museum happens, I also would go, and I'd bet alot of others would as well.

Thank you everyone for your sage advice, I had taken into consideration the "other charges", and was hoping to find a mystery tenant who could use oodles of space( Like 20,000 sq ft of it). Isn't going to happen, however I am still going to try to get half of one floor, or @ 6500 sq ft for 1000$, plus the related costs. Just to clarify, we intend to have arcade video games, maybe some pool tables, pins,a few jukes,foosball and some em games, as well as a plethora of home systems available for free play, going back to Magnavox Odyssey.Right now, our total game count, excluding home systems is approaching 100. As well, over time, we intend to build a collection of other arcade related paraphernalia.Thanks for all the advice, it will be heeded, but rest assured , this museum will take shape in some form over the coming months, as we think that there are a lot of people that would be interested to come and see something like this, and maybe become regulars of sorts. Idea is along the lines of other places..10$ flat fee, unlimited play.

Thanks for the all the responses

Quoted from gjd

Thank you everyone for your sage advice, I had taken into consideration the "other charges", and was hoping to find a mystery tenant who could use oodles of space( Like 20,000 sq ft of it). Isn't going to happen, however I am still going to try to get half of one floor, or @ 6500 sq ft for 1000$, plus the related costs. Just to clarify, we intend to have arcade video games, maybe some pool tables, pins,a few jukes,foosball and some em games, as well as a plethora of home systems available for free play, going back to Magnavox Odyssey.Right now, our total game count, excluding home systems is approaching 100. As well, over time, we intend to build a collection of other arcade related paraphernalia.Thanks for all the advice, it will be heeded, but rest assured , this museum will take shape in some form over the coming months, as we think that there are a lot of people that would be interested to come and see something like this, and maybe become regulars of sorts. Idea is along the lines of other places..10$ flat fee, unlimited play.

Thanks for the all the responses

have you checked with the zoning department?  Mississauga's zoning is goofy.   took a while.  not sure what toronto's is like.  There are all these old laws from the 1970's about pinballs within x km of schools.   you may have the same issue.  i know at one point the city of toronto said no more permits for "arcades".   im not a lawyer, so the definition would need to be worked out.  but i think it was more than 2 machines.

what part of town?

mike

Yes, there are zoning issues in the City of Toronto. Fortunately,  I intend to set it up as a non profit museum, not an arcade, so that alleviates some of the headaches, and the zoning department hasn't had a request for a new "amusement place" like this in well over a decade, so they seemed pretty keen on giving it a green light . I have talked to them quite a bit already, and have been reassured that it looks like it will be OK. Also this particular location is in an industrial zoned area with no schools, etc in close proximity.Worse case scenario, and the city of T.O has been known to act quite idiotically, we will take it outside of the city, where restrictions in most other communities are either non existent, or easily dealt with.

Thanks

Oh yes, part of town with this building is just south of Allen Road and the 401

Quoted from gjd

Oh yes, part of town with this building is just south of Allen Road and the 401

I would assume that the Toronto Pinball League (TOPL) would be a possible/probably client as we only have one regular spot in Toronto on our schedule right now.