Tech tip: 3 flashes isn't always what you think...
Welcome, Guest.
Portal
Please login or register.
MAACA ARCHIVES - JOIN THE NEW FORUM AT HTTP://WWW.MAACA.ORG    General Boards    Tips and How To's  ›  Tech tip: 3 flashes isn't always what you think...
Users Browsing Forum
No Members and 4 Guests

Tech tip: 3 flashes isn't always what you think...  This thread currently has 389 views. Print
2 Pages 1 2 » All Recommend Thread
cooke
March 31, 2010, 8:54am Report to Moderator

Say 'yes' to classic Sterns.
Complete MAACA-Wacko!
Posts
2,680
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
1.31
Time Online
655 days 1 hours 13 minutes
Location
London, Ontario
Age
33
I was recently contacted by a dude in Cambridge with a non-working Bally Paragon. He said that he's had the game for 20 years and it worked great until about 10 years ago when it suddenly stopped working. He brought me the game so I could do a proper repair & shop job. (I won't do house calls anymore because the machines always need way more work than I can reasonably do in short home visits.)

There were lots of problems with this game, but the one issue that nearly drove me over the edge was the following:

The MPU was giving 3 flashes. I managed to get the game to fully boot up once or twice, but the left slingshot coil would lock on and the board would lock-up quickly. I figured the locked on coil was probably unrelated to the problem I was having with the MPU and was more likely a driver board or connector issue.

The MPU would boot up on the bench each and every time without issue.

It had the original battery installed, but the board still looked great. I removed the battery to install a memory cap and found not one spec of corrosion. I replaced the 6820 at U10 because that chip is the typical problem when the board flashes only 3 times. This did not solve the problem, so I replaced the socket as well. That didn't fix the problem either.  

Next, I grabbed a known working MPU, installed Paragon roms and put it in the game. This board also gave 3 flashes. I tried the original Paragon board in another game and it had no trouble booting up. So the issue was clearly not board related.

I scratched my head a few times and figured I'd re-pin the important connectors, just to rule out any connector problems. I repinned J4 on the MPU and J3 on the driver board. The power supply also needed to be rebuilt, so I did that and repinned the power supply connectors.

Still 3 flashes.

I removed all of the connectors from the MPU except for J4 so that I could isolate the problem somewhat and tried again. This time the board would give all 7 flashes. I added one connector at a time until I found the one that would prevent the board from booting up all the way. J2 was the culprit.

MPU J2 is the playfield switch strobe/return connector so whatever is causing the problem seems to be related to the switches on the playfield.

Next, with MPU J2 installed, I removed power supply connector J1. This connector supplies GI, solenoid and switched illumination voltage to the playfield. The game booted without issue. So clearly the problem is related to voltage affecting a switch on the playfield.

I lifted the playfield and searched around. Remembering that the left slingshot had locked-on when I did manage to get the game to boot, I paid particular attention to that area.

I found that a wire going to a GI socket beside the left slingshot had become disconnected and moved into contact with the left slingshot switch. I said "a-ha!" and swore at the wire a couple of times. Once the wire was moved and the game powered up, it booted into attract mode and played no problem.

I chased my tail on this issue for way longer than I should have. Hopefully this knowledge saves someone some time in the future.

Corey
Logged Offline
Private Message
gmaranda
March 31, 2010, 9:01am Report to Moderator

MAACA-General
Posts
756
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
1.85
Time Online
51 days 16 hours 44 minutes
Location
Clarence-Rockland (Ontario)
Age
109
wow, tks for sharing. I like the way you did it.  I will keep that in mind.
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 1 - 19
sylvain
March 31, 2010, 9:06am Report to Moderator

Complete MAACA-Wacko!
Posts
1,815
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
0.81
Time Online
18 days 2 hours 9 minutes
Location
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
Yes... Good post, Thanks.

You are not the only one with a similar issue however.
I bought an as-is Nitro Groundshaker for cheap many moons ago,
because the tech could not figure-out why the game would not boot,
even with a new MPU or Sol.Driver.

See my earlier post here:
http://archive.maaca.org/s107351202.onlinehome.us/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1233763841/s-4/highlight-Nitro/#num4

Cheers,
- Sylvain.


Looking for 1966 Bally Capersville, 1967 Bally The Wiggler, 1981 Stern Viper, 1986 Pinstar Gamatron,
1986 Williams Grand Lizard, 1991 Williams Bride of Pinbot, and a few others.
Cash or some trades available. Could also repair a machine of yours +/-$ if needed, in exchange for
one machine on my want list, non-working/unshopped welcome!
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 2 - 19
jonny_eh
March 31, 2010, 9:19am Report to Moderator

I don't believe you!
Complete MAACA-Wacko!
Posts
2,936
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
2.63
Time Online
156 days 19 hours 3 minutes
Location
Ottawa, ON
Age
27
So what's the lesson here? Look for loose wires near trouble spots before doing anything else? Loose wires are (relatively) easy to find and fix.

We could learn a lot from House MD when diagnosing pins. Look for the easiest to cure problem before anything else.


HaveWant
-The Getaway: High Speed II!!
-Spider-Man
-F-14 Tomcat
-Guns N' Roses
-Lord of the Rings
-Twilight Zone
-Medieval Madness!
-Indiana Jones (Williams)
-Star Trek: The Next Generation
-Champion Pub
-Terminator 3
-Congo
-Johnny Mnemonic
-Tales of the Arabian Nights
Logged Offline
Site Private Message Skype Reply: 3 - 19
wbradley
March 31, 2010, 9:19am Report to Moderator

Is it an atom? No, it's multiball!
Complete MAACA-Wacko!
Posts
2,181
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
4.03
Time Online
148 days 9 hours 30 minutes
Location
Thornhill, ON
Age
46
Painful story, happy ending.

Hate to say it but I would have examined the area around the slingshot right at the get go as it is a lot easier than changing pins, etc.

However I commend you on your willingness to roll up your sleeves and get right into the boards/connectors...in this case unnecessarily!


Ten SS games...but 8 is my limit!
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 4 - 19
cooke
March 31, 2010, 9:31am Report to Moderator

Say 'yes' to classic Sterns.
Complete MAACA-Wacko!
Posts
2,680
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
1.31
Time Online
655 days 1 hours 13 minutes
Location
London, Ontario
Age
33
Quoted from jonny_eh
So what's the lesson here? Look for loose wires near trouble spots before doing anything else? Loose wires are (relatively) easy to find and fix.

We could learn a lot from House MD when diagnosing pins. Look for the easiest to cure problem before anything else.


Well, Jon, I suppose that the lesson here is that the built-in diagnostic tools in old Bally/Stern MPU's don't always point toward a board issue like one might normally suspect. The easiest solution in this case would be to replace the U10 IC and/or socket, which is what I did first.

Having repaired a few dozen of these games over the last several years, I've never encountered a problem with a MPU where the cause was neither board nor connector related. As a result, therefore, that is where I focused the majority of my energy when trying to determine the solution to the problem. .

I figured I would simply share my findings with the class. I apologize if my post got in the way of all your tech tips and helpful solutions. I'll try to remember to look first for the easiest solution to such problems in the future. Thanks for the great advice.
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 5 - 19
RAB
March 31, 2010, 9:35am Report to Moderator

Another day, another buck and 1\2
MAACA-Colonel
Posts
398
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
1.18
Time Online
12 days 20 hours 27 minutes
Location
Chez nous ENFIN ! Montreal-you're my HOME !
Age
47
Having done my share of home service calls for solid state games I can state the following without any edits.

First, I interview the owner with key questions, and demand clear answers. Once I have gotten what I believe will reduce doubt & variables, that is when I decide if it is home service or shop.

If I take on the home service call on an SS, I put a post it on my nose that reminds me to take a good long look to the obvious as soon as I am in the door.

The problem I see developing in the future is that, as these machines get older, the list for "the obvious" gets longer and longer especially for those machines that are sitting alone in homes with no collectors around to attend to those pesky maintenance details which demand more and more attention as time marches on.




Toujours à la recherche de vos histoires liant Montréal et les machines à boules.
Always looking for your Montreal based pinball stories.

Machine Wish List :   nothing

http://www.montrealpinball.com


Montreal and the year of the flipper -- Montreal et l'annee du flipper
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uggk5tiK-G8&feature=related
Logged Offline
Site Private Message Reply: 6 - 19
cooke
March 31, 2010, 9:36am Report to Moderator

Say 'yes' to classic Sterns.
Complete MAACA-Wacko!
Posts
2,680
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
1.31
Time Online
655 days 1 hours 13 minutes
Location
London, Ontario
Age
33
Quoted from wbradley
Painful story, happy ending.

Hate to say it but I would have examined the area around the slingshot right at the get go as it is a lot easier than changing pins, etc.

However I commend you on your willingness to roll up your sleeves and get right into the boards/connectors...in this case unnecessarily!


In retrospect, it would have made sense to examine the area around the left slingshot first.

However, like I mention above, I've seen lots of locked-on coils in the past and the issue is nearly always related to a bad transistor, a bad connector or a stuck switch. In this case, I didn't even really give the locked-on coil much thought because there's no logical reason for a locked-on coil to affect whether a MPU makes it through the boot-up process or not. Know what I mean?

Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 7 - 19
jonny_eh
March 31, 2010, 9:38am Report to Moderator

I don't believe you!
Complete MAACA-Wacko!
Posts
2,936
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
2.63
Time Online
156 days 19 hours 3 minutes
Location
Ottawa, ON
Age
27
Quoted from cooke


Well, Jon, I suppose that the lesson here is that the built-in diagnostic tools in old Bally/Stern MPU's don't always point toward a board issue like one might normally suspect. The easiest solution in this case would be to replace the U10 IC and/or socket, which is what I did first.

Having repaired a few dozen of these games over the last several years, I've never encountered a problem with a MPU where the cause was neither board nor connector related. As a result, therefore, that is where I focused the majority of my energy when trying to determine the solution to the problem. .

I figured I would simply share my findings with the class. I apologize if my post got in the way of all your tech tips and helpful solutions. I'll try to remember to look first for the easiest solution to such problems in the future. Thanks for the great advice.


Sorry, didn't mean to tell you how to do repairs. I've only repaired one game from that era, and it was with your help! I was just being cheeky. These repairs in retrospect always seem really simple.


HaveWant
-The Getaway: High Speed II!!
-Spider-Man
-F-14 Tomcat
-Guns N' Roses
-Lord of the Rings
-Twilight Zone
-Medieval Madness!
-Indiana Jones (Williams)
-Star Trek: The Next Generation
-Champion Pub
-Terminator 3
-Congo
-Johnny Mnemonic
-Tales of the Arabian Nights
Logged Offline
Site Private Message Skype Reply: 8 - 19
wbradley
March 31, 2010, 10:32am Report to Moderator

Is it an atom? No, it's multiball!
Complete MAACA-Wacko!
Posts
2,181
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
4.03
Time Online
148 days 9 hours 30 minutes
Location
Thornhill, ON
Age
46
The lesson learned here is take your repairs to Cory! Oh, nd pay him by the job, not hour.  


Ten SS games...but 8 is my limit!
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 9 - 19
Bally Boy
March 31, 2010, 11:15am Report to Moderator

MAACA-General
Posts
761
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
0.49
Time Online
100 days 5 hours 1 minutes
Location
Ancaster
If these repairs were easy, I guess everybody would be able to do it, but that isn't always the case.

Good post, I too would have probably leaned toward a MPU issue at first glance as well, very interesting problem....
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 10 - 19
McMean
March 31, 2010, 12:55pm Report to Moderator

MAACA-Warrior
Posts
1,136
Gender
Male
Posts Per Day
0.85
Time Online
18 days 18 hours 55 minutes
Location
Peterborough
Age
34
Thanks for sharing, appreciated.
Daniel


*****************************
McMean's EM Repair Service:
http://archive.maaca.org/s107351202.onlinehome.us/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?m-1258832355/
Logged Offline
Private Message Reply: 11 - 19
2 Pages 1 2 » All Recommend Thread
Print

MAACA ARCHIVES - JOIN THE NEW FORUM AT HTTP://WWW.MAACA.ORG    General Boards    Tips and How To's  ›  Tech tip: 3 flashes isn't always what you think...

Thread Rating
There is currently no rating for this thread
 


Powered by E-Blah Forum Software 10.3.6 © 2001-2008

Valid XHTML Valid CSS Sourceforge.net Powered by Perl