Hello again, i apologize for busting them, but I would really like to stick to my timeline and get this operational by August. Herein lies the major issue: Zoning. If i take the location at Carlaw, it lends itself to a party venue much better, and there can be full utilization of the space. it is also zoned industrial which= no problems with zoning. The location on Woodbine is not bad, but the basement is  unusable, and it is zoned commercial. i fear that it will never be approved for a variance, and to just have the machines set up for dispaly and turn then on, on the sly, doesn't sit well with me.Complicating matters is the fact that zoning is also on strike, and from my past dealings with that office, I have a better understanding of the zoning bylaws than they do. I know i would eventually get a variance, but to wait 6 months is restrictive. In short, there are 5 areas of the city that are zoned industrial

1. lakeshore/cherry beach area  This is where i have wanted to set up from day 1, place on lakeshore falls in here
2. Thorncliffe /Leaside. Around the corner from my house, and my fater already has a business in that area. Some properties available here
3. Etobicoke. There is an area out that way as well, im not too big on it
4. Deep Scarborough, mostly North of the 401
5. Along the 400 and Finch, basically that whole area

My other option is to go anywhere in the city and gamble on a variance. I have heard the reservations with industrial areas, and take that into account as well. Again, feedback appreciated.

Another option s to take it out of T.O altogether, it would be cheaper, but transit is an issue. Please respond with your thoughts. thanks

Putting it in an industrial area is where you will find the "Church of the Silver Ball". If want the same thing, private parties, league nights and so on, go for the industrial area. I do not think Mike is in it for profitability, so it survives. IMHO for you to survive you need to be in an area with lots of pedestrian traffic. Funland was on Yonge street and did not survive and I know there are lots of reasons, but for your venture to survive you need a lot more support than that of the MAACA comunity. Isolating yourself in a industrial area is not a smart decision. My two cents and that may be all that it is worth.

I think easy public access should be on the top of the list for sure.  If people can get there from a city bus or subway line, they'll go for sure.. and they'll be regulars.  What kind of zoning is necessary for this to work?  I'd have figured it'd have to be commercial, but that's not the case?  Is it because of how you're charging to operate?  Maybe you can play around with that instead.. like selling tokens or something (maybe there's a token that quarter mechs will accept so you don't have to change all the mechs around)

Also don't forget there's a CGCC swap meet coming in the fall, so if you're operational by then I'm sure the organizers would be happy to pass out flyers, which I can help with seeing as I work at a print shop  

Anyway, the Woodbine and Lakeshore options are my top 2 picks

Alternatively there is this location, which would lend itself to  indoor storage, indoor auction facility, subleasing, an enormous party venue,full scale restoration facilities , including a down draft booth etc, and the space to display over 1000 machines ( Some day).Could also co locate with other museums related to electronics/art?

http://www.icx.ca/PropertyDeta.....p;PropertyID=7572588

I dislike that area of the city a lot, but it is somewhat central, and that price is negotiable. It also has a loading dock, and a bit of parking.has been on market for some time.

What area is it in? All the listing says is located near Allen RD. That can be anywhere from Eglinton up to Wilson by the looks of it.
Taking a lease with the possibility of a refusal of a variance, isn't that a huge risk? Can you afford to go through with this in the event that the variance is declined?  Seems kinda back assward to me.

I think you need to avoid "the Jungle" which is near where the location you just posted appears to be.

My advice, don't rush! If you must wait longer it beats losing a lot of time and money on a disasteroue venture.

Quoted from wbradley

What area is it in? All the listing says is located near Allen RD. That can be anywhere from Eglinton up to Wilson by the looks of it.
Taking a lease with the possibility of a refusal of a variance, isn't that a huge risk? Can you afford to go through with this in the event that the variance is declined?  Seems kinda back assward to me.

I think you need to avoid "the Jungle" which is near where the location you just posted appears to be.

My advice, don't rush! If you must wait longer it beats losing a lot of time and money on a disasteroue venture.

Yes, that is correct, and that is what I am going to do. If I simply display the machines, there is no need for an amusement place permit, anywhere in the city, regardless of zoning. I can assure you i have taken zoning into account, and wouldn't do something a silly as to take a lease without proper approval.I am also already aware that industrial zones do not require a variance for amusement machines. That is why the carlaw location looks promising again, even though the landlord is a bit of a tool ( Biopharmaceutical corp). In any case, I appreciate the feedback. Yes that other location is in the Jungle, so forget it. Guess that is why it so cheapMay add to the excitement though, trying to dodge muggers and gunshots on your way there!

Alternatively, I can go back to square 1 and wait for a city owned facility. I would then be forever entwined with them ( Which Im not the keenest on). In the short term it would be great, but in the long term, might be a headache. There are a few facilities, that I have my eye on, that are vacant,I have also been offered up two smaller facilities immediately, but here is what I'd be looking at:

1. Old police garage( central traffic) at Strachan ave, near CNE.
2. Old canpar building on queens qualy ( huge, but I could see them subdividing temporarily
3. Chery beach area. Undergoing a transformation period, if i did get in with the city, the propensity for a brand new facility exists.
4. fast ferry terminal, cherry beach. Now relegated to a "cruise ship terminal". Only prob, there are hardly ever any cruise ships , beautiful and perfect facility

After the headaches i have been through recently, long term survival probably means getting in with the city ( which I have already laid the groundwork for)
Thanks, and comments appreciated

My updated 2 cents worth of opinion...

I would say slow down.  as much as i would like to see this together sooner rather than later, placement is going to be a big issue.  If you can get in with the city, that would probably make things easier to prepare.

The problem is of course, cheaper places are either small, have no access, no parking or are in horrible neighborhoods.  A museum for this sort of stuff needs LOTS of space, so that leaves out the small places.  If you want to survive, you'll need access. so you are looking at either rougher neighborhoods, or spending more money.

I think you are right to push for a city owned building... but if you are thinking of working with at risk youth, you'll need bus/subway access.


Personally, i think that the markham road/lawrence area would be perfect..... but maybe i am a little biased

Research and audience identification, along with a solid, well vetted marketing plan is they key to any successful business (I am a marketing consultant by principal trade).  Your "product" has a lot of different audiences, but you have to identify which ones are going to be the most lucrative (or desirable) and how profitable that will be and then locate and market according to that audience's needs.  Review other's successes and failures.  Funland didn't succeed because they stuck to an old business model (pay per play) that just doesn't work any more (and the real estate was worth more than the business).  If you want street traffic, then locate on a centrally accessible place with public transit in an area that's perceived safe and "fun" (but it will be expensive real estate).  Market to a "membership" crowd and spend money on making a classy comfortable atmosphere, with a liquor and food license, and then location is less of an issue with older audience that have access to cars.  Market to a "museum" crowd, then consider the cost of location vs. traffic and available local amenities, accommodations and attractions (and consider hosting an annual Pinball Market and Tournament - like others here have been trying to do for years).

I for one avoid TOPL events at member's locations that don't seem to have accessible parking (no matter how much public transit is available), but I will travel for more than an hour to go to a location that is filled with good quality pinballs and lots of parking. But am I the audience you want to cater to (I don't attend nearly enough TOPL events anyway)? I have my own machines so I wouldn't visit more than monthly at best (and I take my older son to the "CHurch" every once in a while ONLY because he has a two seater driving game - my sons can take or leave pinball).

If your main thrust is a "museum" then you have to think like a museum first (and a "club" second) and locate in a location that people will travel to when seeking out a "museum". (This is similar to specialty cinemas that cater to both a walk-in audience and a hard-core membership.) That means parking, other near-by attractions, food choices.  If you think your mainstay will be locals, then go to the local market and "test" - will the local high school provide enough interested parties?  I think it's important to discount the interest shown by individuals here on MAACA, because people may say they will attend or prefer a certain location, but it will be all over the map, and at least half those won't be attending more than once or twice a year at best.  Even TOPL only attracts maybe 10 - 13 regulars and maxes out at 20 - 25 and maybe 30 on a Tournament (actually I am no expert on the TOPL stats - you should ask Vengence).

Make certain, no matter what you do, that you go into it with at least 2 years of operating capital in reserve (i.e. you could hold on to the location and operate with no income at all for at least 2 years).  4 years reserved operating capital would be better.  I've almost never seen a business succeed through a recessive economy that didn't follow that particularly sageous advice. By the end of the 2 years, you should be at least breaking even, otherwise the business is a failure.  You should be covering your operating expenses and have recovered your capital investment by the end of the fourth year, and should be making a profit by the 4th or 6th year to really consider the business a success "with legs".   Don't forget that your "operating expenses" include a salary for the management.

There's a lot to think about.

Average attendance for TOPL last season was 17.8 people per night.  

that .8 guy must be really skinny

lol, he's so skinny you had to mention it twice!!!

I count as 1.857 people myself....