Mine are on their way!!!! Hmm... incentive to restore the whole pin?

I should be getting them soon... along with a new Seawitch backglass and plastics set!!! Time to build me a Seawitch!!!

More importantly the Viking plastics are in.  Order made!

Man those are some tought plastics to do if you have ever looked closely!

Seawitch is a beautiful looking game!

Quoted from Tuborg

Seawitch is a beautiful looking game!

..but it plays like dog poopie IMO.

Quoted from mrniceguy

..but it plays like dog poopie IMO.

Oh crap... you are in trouble now... the Old-Stern-Mafia is on your tail now...

Classic Stern owners, unite!!!

Quoted from mrniceguy

..but it plays like dog poopie IMO.

Yeah, Supersonic, Playboy, Kiss and Rolling Stones play soooooo much better.  

Quoted from cooke

Yeah, Supersonic, Playboy, Kiss and Rolling Stones play soooooo much better.  

... owned.

They ALL play like crap, every old crappy game plays like the crappity crap that it is

Quoted from Vengeance

They ALL play like crap, every old crappy game plays like the crappity crap that it is

I'll bet you say that about ALL the pins you can't play  

Quoted from machine.slave

I'll bet you say that about ALL the pins you can't play  

Nope only the crappy ones

Quoted from Vengeance

They ALL play like crap, every old crappy game plays like the crappity crap that it is

Didn't you buy and old crappy game to hone your skills?  

Quoted from Tuborg

Didn't you buy and old crappy game to hone your skills?  

Nope borrowed one.

All it helped me realize was that there is less skill involved in older games and more chance/luck then there is in newer games.

Quoted from Vengeance

Nope borrowed one.

All it helped me realize was that there is less skill involved in older games and more chance/luck then there is in newer games.

I beg to differ. There is lots of skill involved. More so than on a newer pin where there is so much stuff to shoot at that the ball spends 95% of the time hitting something, while on an older one it spends 95% of the time trying to drain your a**.

Quoted from Sparky

I beg to differ. There is lots of skill involved. More so than on a newer pin where there is so much stuff to shoot at that the ball spends 95% of the time hitting something, while on an older one it spends 95% of the time trying to drain your a**.

And you'd be wrong

History has show that no one has ever been able to win back to back tournaments at PAPA in the classics division.  

Also you ask anyone who has to play someone like Bowen or Keith or any of the top players and they will tell you to play them on an older machine because there are way more random elements and way more bad bounces that are beyond control then that of a regular game.

The same people are able to qualify year after year and win year after year in the A division at PAPA because there is more control, more skill involved and less randomness on the machine.  The machines are designed better and thus make controlling the ball easier if you know what you are doing.

Classics have too many random elements, to many areas with 0 control over what happens.  The perfect example is in Paragon in the beats lair, there is nothing you can do to help that ball get out of that area once it's in there, it's either going to drain or it's going to come through the outlane.  It's out of the players control and has nothing to do with skill.  I could come up with any number of examples on classic games where the control shifts from the player to that of the machine, removing the skill and adding in it's own random element.  

Modern games don't have these same areas, control can be kept of the ball pretty much all the time, yes there are bad bounces and air balls and the like but generally speaking there aren't any areas where the player has no control over what happens and thus removing the skill involved to keep the ball in play.

Quoted from Vengeance

Also you ask anyone who has to play someone like Bowen or Keith or any of the top players and they will tell you to play them on an older machine because there are way more random elements and way more bad bounces that are beyond control then that of a regular game.

So basically what you are saying is that your skill level is simply not high enough to compensate for the amount of luck involved.  Hmmmm, I bet if I played a game of miniature golf with Tiger Woods, there's no amount of lucky bounces or other random elements that would prevent him from kicking my a$$.  

Sounds to me like you've just got to practice a little more.  

Quoted from Vengeance

And you'd be wrong

History has show that no one has ever been able to win back to back tournaments at PAPA in the classics division.  

Also you ask anyone who has to play someone like Bowen or Keith or any of the top players and they will tell you to play them on an older machine because there are way more random elements and way more bad bounces that are beyond control then that of a regular game.

The same people are able to qualify year after year and win year after year in the A division at PAPA because there is more control, more skill involved and less randomness on the machine.  The machines are designed better and thus make controlling the ball easier if you know what you are doing.

Classics have too many random elements, to many areas with 0 control over what happens.  The perfect example is in Paragon in the beats lair, there is nothing you can do to help that ball get out of that area once it's in there, it's either going to drain or it's going to come through the outlane.  It's out of the players control and has nothing to do with skill.  I could come up with any number of examples on classic games where the control shifts from the player to that of the machine, removing the skill and adding in it's own random element.  

Modern games don't have these same areas, control can be kept of the ball pretty much all the time, yes there are bad bounces and air balls and the like but generally speaking there aren't any areas where the player has no control over what happens and thus removing the skill involved to keep the ball in play.

Bah... I beat that Bowen guy on GNR... (lucky if you ask me...)

Quoted from Vengeance

And you'd be wrong

History has show that no one has ever been able to win back to back tournaments at PAPA in the classics division.  

Also you ask anyone who has to play someone like Bowen or Keith or any of the top players and they will tell you to play them on an older machine because there are way more random elements and way more bad bounces that are beyond control then that of a regular game.

The same people are able to qualify year after year and win year after year in the A division at PAPA because there is more control, more skill involved and less randomness on the machine.  The machines are designed better and thus make controlling the ball easier if you know what you are doing.

Classics have too many random elements, to many areas with 0 control over what happens.  The perfect example is in Paragon in the beats lair, there is nothing you can do to help that ball get out of that area once it's in there, it's either going to drain or it's going to come through the outlane.  It's out of the players control and has nothing to do with skill.  I could come up with any number of examples on classic games where the control shifts from the player to that of the machine, removing the skill and adding in it's own random element.  

Modern games don't have these same areas, control can be kept of the ball pretty much all the time, yes there are bad bounces and air balls and the like but generally speaking there aren't any areas where the player has no control over what happens and thus removing the skill involved to keep the ball in play.

And that's why pinball has had it's day and the general public don't care to play anymore.

Quoted from mrniceguy

So basically what you are saying is that your skill level is simply not high enough to compensate for the amount of luck involved.  Hmmmm, I bet if I played a game of miniature golf with Tiger Woods, there's no amount of lucky bounces or other random elements that would prevent him from kicking my a$$.  

Sounds to me like you've just got to practice a little more.  

You can't compare the two.

Here is another example, take a game like Flip Flop where the outlanes are nothing but gaping holes, there is more luck then skill level involved in that game, it's just about hoping to get the lucky bounce.  

It just so happens I was able to get the lucky bounces:

http://www.papa.org/papa12/live/topK1-Flip_Flop.html

I'm not saying that there isn't any skill involved as their obviously is, but I'm just saying that there is less skill involved in an older classic because of all the random elements then there is in a modern game.  

Quoted from cooke

And that's why pinball has had it's day and the general public don't care to play anymore.

The general public don't play it anymore because it isn't available anymore.  It's not available anymore for a number of reasons.  I don't think skill level is one of those reasons, there are way more other contributing factors then new game design that factored into pinball's demise.  Also the number one selling game of all time is a modern game not a classic, so obviously pinball had it's hayday in the modern era, not in the classic era.  

Here is my last point on this.

Classic games lack consistency.  

Anyone that is good at anything is regarded as good because they can be consistent.

There is no consistency in Classic games, you can't play a classic game consistently well because the game is designed not to play that way.  Two people of different skill levels, say me against Bowen as an example, on a classic game because it's impossible to play consistently on those types of games the win ratio between us would be close (Sparky don't even bother bringing up Dan's because I wasn't trying half as hard as I would have had something that actually mattered been on the line and I doubt Bowen was either) because it's very hard to be consistent on classic games, regardless of skill level the games are made to have shorter ball times and thus reduce the skill level involved.

But Bowen against me on a modern type game and I'd be willing to bet Bowen would be able to take a much larger portion of the wins because modern games play in a consistent fashion and he is the better player.  When you take the random element away and are left with the skill potion, the portion the player is able to control, their ability to play on that game becomes much more consistent because the skill level of the player shines through as the things beyond their control are much less.  

That's why I feel classic games require less skill because there is no consistency and it has much less to do with the skill of the player and much more to do with getting the right bounces.  

Quoted from Vengeance

You can't compare the two.

Here is another example, take a game like Flip Flop where the outlanes are nothing but gaping holes, there is more luck then skill level involved in that game, it's just about hoping to get the lucky bounce.  

It just so happens I was able to get the lucky bounces:

If you play just a few games, and certainly if you play only ONE game, then almost anything can happen.  My 6-year old beat me on Mata Hari once  ( I'm almost over that ).   But if you played a dozen games, the better player would most certainly come through eventually.  The only difference between the classic games and the modern games is the ratio of skill to luck.  Since the ratio in classic games is lower, differences in skill level are not as readily apparent unless x number of games are played.  

You just have to be willing to be more patient...but you want to kick everyone's A$$ right away !!!

Quoted from Vengeance

Here is my last point on this.

Classic games lack consistency.  

Anyone that is good at anything is regarded as good because they can be consistent.

There is no consistency in Classic games, you can't play a classic game consistently well because the game is designed not to play that way.  Two people of different skill levels, say me against Bowen as an example, on a classic game because it's impossible to play consistently on those types of games the win ratio between us would be close (Sparky don't even bother bringing up Dan's because I wasn't trying half as hard as I would have had something that actually mattered been on the line and I doubt Bowen was either) because it's very hard to be consistent on classic games, regardless of skill level the games are made to have shorter ball times and thus reduce the skill level involved.

But Bowen against me on a modern type game and I'd be willing to bet Bowen would be able to take a much larger portion of the wins because modern games play in a consistent fashion and he is the better player.  When you take the random element away and are left with the skill potion, the portion the player is able to control, their ability to play on that game becomes much more consistent because the skill level of the player shines through as the things beyond their control are much less.  

That's why I feel classic games require less skill because there is no consistency and it has much less to do with the skill of the player and much more to do with getting the right bounces.  

On consistency I agree with 100%. But the luck factor... that applies to pre-flipper bagatelles and woodrails. Bowen did fantastic on the old games due to his clearly superior skill level. Albeit, yes, the "chaos" factor is more present on older games compared to DMDs, but still not the main factor.