Anyone know if and when the Canadian Pinball Championship will be held this year?  Assuming it will be at SB/Playdium Store again?

Not a peep, I'm assuming it won't be happening again.  They didn't do as well as expected last year and since this is more of a promotional event then a tournament for them, I don't see them continuing if it isn't profitable for them.

Damn, would have been a good time to see if IM is worth the hype.  Very disappointing to say the least.  

I know that if they have the CPC that I will support it and attend. If they let it die then the business / hobby will not resurrect itself. When I attended last year the place was full and there was plenty of action. The sales department always had a line, there were kids enjoying the tournament, it looked successful. I guess it depends what reasonable profit margin they are expecting but that amount of traffic had to generate some revenue for these guys.

I got to see the final cash numbers taken in from the tournament.

They took in enough to cover the cost of all the cash prizes but not the pinball machine.

The first year they did great, don't know the numbers from the tourney but they did gang busters in sales on the floor so that made up for any short comings from the tournament.

Last year like I said they covered the cash prizes but not the cost of the machine and sales were lack luster on the floor.  You also have to take into account they aren't using volunteers, all those people there were paid staff.  

Almost all pinball tournaments run are run on a break even policy pretty much.  I know running the TPC even though I won first prize I still lost money, had I had to pay out the $1000 first prize I would have taken a bath.  Playdium can't afford to just break even then need to make money or it's not worth it.  I understand their reasoning's which is why I won't hold it against them if they don't run it this year.  They run a business, they aren't hobbyists, they aren't running the tournament for the good of the hobby, there doing it to promote their business, and that's perfectly fine.

They could always eliminate the pinball machine first prize and adjust the prize payout to a realistic projection of the revenue.

Also, keep in mind last year was the first event AFTER Dec 2008 so everything was down.

Does this mean Sean O'Neil stays Canadian champ in perpetuity?  

Advertising generally isn't free and it is unfortunate that they didn't break even last year but I think it would be in their best interest to be consistent with this event for the sake of appearances (that pinball isn't completely dead), media coverage and general awareness. Perhaps the market for pinball hasn't exactly flourished in the last couple years, taking the recent economic struggles into consideration, but not everyone is suffering/broke. CPC 2010 should be considered an investment into their future and an expense and not a money-making endeavor, imho.

The window of opportunity for Playdium (or any other pinball related venture) to fully capitalize on nostalgia will completely peter off in a few years when the kids of yesteryear weren't old enough to even remember pinball machines/arcades. Now is the time to try and entice new collectors.

Quoted from OTTOgd

Advertising generally isn't free and it is unfortunate that they didn't break even last year but I think it would be in their best interest to be consistent with this event for the sake of appearances (that pinball isn't completely dead), media coverage and general awareness. Perhaps the market for pinball hasn't exactly flourished in the last couple years, taking the recent economic struggles into consideration, but not everyone is suffering/broke. CPC 2010 should be considered an investment into their future and an expense and not a money-making endeavor, imho.

The window of opportunity for Playdium (or any other pinball related venture) to fully capitalize on nostalgia will completely peter off in a few years when the kids of yesteryear weren't old enough to even remember pinball machines/arcades. Now is the time to try and entice new collectors.

All well and good for us to sit in our armchairs and say what should be done, but they are the ones who have to pay for it.  Again like I said this isn't for the hobby, it's for their bottom line.  It's their money, their the ones who have to take the risk, and the loss should there be another one.  

I do understand what your saying Adam.  Buisness is business.  But 1 great year and 1 lack luster year shouldn't kill it should it?  I think they would be jumping the gun to trash it all together based on that.  How many new customers or later sales can be attributed to the "event".  They need to tweek it.  I went to the last one, not for the prizes but for the competition.  Sure, money prizes or a pin would have been exciting to win but just being a part of something like this was amazing for me.  The more I play the new machines the more I want one.  Sure, some advertizing or events garner immediate results with some people and with others its later.  But to can something after such a short run is short sighted in my opinion.  

What was the entrance fee last year?  $30?  That was cheap and I likely dropped another $200 on parts and trying to better myself on certain games.  This year would be no exception and I was...and still am, looking forward to the event.  Hell, if I was scheduled to work I was going to ask for it off and thats why I'm asking now if and when its going to happen.  If they leave it too late and its short notice I won't be able to plan for it.  

I say give it a chance SB.  A couple more years and then crunch the numbers.  I missed the first and regretted it and after being at the last one I don't think I would miss another.  Its something I would mark on my callendar a year in advance but I can't make plans based on maybe's...

Mike

Quoted from Vengeance

All well and good for us to sit in our armchairs and say what should be done, but they are the ones who have to pay for it.  Again like I said this isn't for the hobby, it's for their bottom line.  It's their money, their the ones who have to take the risk, and the loss should there be another one.  

Regardless of the armchair that anyone chooses to sit in, if no one knows their product exists then their sales are going to fail.

Growing or maintaining a business requires marketing that can't be expected to pay off the day of launch. Awareness needs to be nurtured. An special event such as this one has the potential garner the attention of non-enthusiasts via multi-media. "Wow, the Canadian Pinball Championships!" ... whatever that *really* means. It hardly recognizes the rest of the country that I can see but it is 'sensational', 'exciting', 'news-worthy' and, for the most part, a novelty that is deeply rooted in nostalgia ... BUT there are really fun, NEW pins being made. I can't count how many times I've heard people ask me, "Do they still make pinball machines?" Word of mouth is a great way for news to spread but not everyone is interested in what we have to say.

Simply put, it is an opportunity for exposure. Maybe SB/Playdium will be in the red that day but, closer to X-mas, their books might reflect an entirely different bottom line. I'm curious to hear if Mike Hanley received any calls as a result of his City TV BT interview. What did that cost him?

If a solar-powered pinball machine falls over in a forest, does it still tilt?      

Here we are a bunch of 40 year old kids trying to show a game to the next generation that requires reflexes and responsibility. That silverball, -
it is physical and real, and you need to keep it moving, scoring, up and alive. It is small, unpredictable and on a rapidly changing course. This demands acute attention, skill and work. How many kids do you know are able to put in that amount of effort ? Depends on their education I guess.

I think SB should promote the CPC again this year and give it a chance, and I would be seriously pissed at my superiors if they didn't. Opportunity knocks everyday, and small markets are more important than ever. In the end, it may be the only thing our humanistically fragmented corporate society leaves for private businesses to thrive on.

No OTTO, if no one sees it, it doesn't tilt or count, but it doesn't mean it didn't occur.  

Maybe someone needs to come up with different ideas on how to make it work. There was one thing I did notice last year. A Donkey Kong tourney was done, timidly though. My thoughts on this is this:

Why limit it to a pinball championship??? Why not have a vid contest as well? Hell, Starburst sells pins, vids, pool tabls and poker tables. Have a billiards competition. Hell, if legal in Ontario, have a little poker going on.

All I am saying is the more markets you expose, the more people you may have over. Most people out there might not want to play pinball, but vids attract them. And if they come over and find out they can leave with a cheap one from an auction, even better!

I say stop limiting it to pinball. Diversify it to a "gameroom" championship.

Just my 0.02$...

Quoted from Sparky

I say stop limiting it to pinball. Diversify it to a "gameroom" championship.

Just my 0.02$...

Here, here! That would be great!

I'd throw in for everything: pins, vids, pool, bubble hockey, foosball, ... but I might pass on Dance Dance Revolution. That'd be a tiring day but a hoot!

Sparky, please send your Gameroom Olympics idea to Playdium. Count me in!

Quoted from OTTOgd

Sparky, please send your Gameroom Olympics idea to Playdium. Count me in!

Chances are someone in TO will for me.

They would have to change the name to the Canadian Gameroom Show, unless that already exists. And yes, that would target a bigger market and necessitate more work to coordinate, but I am not sure that it would attract a very different demographic of people than it already does. I think that proper marketing & promotion is the key in the end, you can sell anything to almost anybody with it, it is scary.

Quoted from OTTOgd

Here, here! That would be great!

but I might pass on Dance Dance Revolution. That'd be a tiring day but a hoot!

"So you think you can dance" competition using the DDR would be fantabulous! You would certainly get the next generation up there and if there was a prize like even $250 credit at Playdium that would work because those costs don't require an outlay of hard cash.

Then do the same for the other vids as Sparky mentioned with another credit of 2 hours at Playdium for a family of 4, etc...

The possibilities are endless.

I just believe that appealing to a broader group is key. To be honest, I have been to the championship twice and most of the crowd were collectors. Not much new blood. And there is also the fact that many dind't get into pinball, so adding vids at a minimum reaches even more people.

Also, advertise it as an open-house. Not just a championship. Tell people to come on in and play a bit. Bring the family. Make it an open event. THEN they will sell more. A gameroom show, in a sense? Maybe...

Welp, just got off the phone with SB.  The answer to my question is "no, we are not".

Quoted from ancientgames

Welp, just got off the phone with SB.  The answer to my question is "no, we are not".

What was you question exactly ?  Aren`t they closed today in Toronto ?

Sales department is open.

I asked if they were holding the Canadian Pinball Championship this year.

"no we are not" wsa the answer.  

Quoted from ancientgames

Sales department is open.

I asked if they were holding the Canadian Pinball Championship this year.

"no we are not" wsa the answer.  

Boooooooooo.  

Well that is sad that they have cancelled the tourney. I know that I have not seen the numbers like Vengeance did but to me I figure that with over 100 people in the tourney, they probably spent $50 - $100 or more plus all of the sales from the service department had to cover the salaries for all of the SB employees for close to a month. Can they do that on a regular weekend with that much traffic and publicity? Hard to say but probably not.  The only other major cost that I could see was a pinball machine but remember it is not a $5000 machine (retail price), it would be less at wholesale prices which I do not know the value of.

I want to support this tourney and SB because they do have some good pins but I know that I won't spend $5K on a pin realistically. So if they cancel the tourney and I can't spend $5k on a pin, then why continue to support them? The auction? I think we see what beat up machines are offered there and value is well, up to the beholder. Our MAACA group does more business in the parking lot in 60 minutes then they do all day. As for parts, that is the only reason for me to spend money there.

Ok, that is enough of my disappointed rant. I am looking forward to all of the other tourneys when they do happen and they will.

Quoted from ancientgames

Welp, just got off the phone with SB.  The answer to my question is "no, we are not".

Well that makes me sad.  I really really enjoyed them.  

Sad to hear but I've got to agree with Adam in the end they have to decide what is an acceptable loss/cost for the tourney. Fairly easy for us all to talk about promotion and what they need to do but we aren't the ones covering the losses. It might be short sighted on SB behalf but that is their choice.

Quoted from SquidVicious

Sad to hear but I've got to agree with Adam in the end they have to decide what is an acceptable loss/cost for the tourney. Fairly easy for us all to talk about promotion and what they need to do but we aren't the ones covering the losses. It might be short sighted on SB behalf but that is their choice.

Yeah, I believe this to be a serious bummer/blunder. Looks short sighted to me as well, but that may be coming from my personal disappointment rather than a "business perspective" with needs to be less dictated by what one thinks on the more complex human level. And rightly so, when looking at this gig from a business perspective, the numbers have probably made the call again. One shortcoming in using past numbers to ultimately justify a decision, is that vision and instinct are subtracted from the possible opportunities lurking.

I was really looking forward to making it down the 401 and using this opportunity to meet more MAACA members and fellow freaks.

I didn't expect much more from Starburst.  They don't want to understand that 1) it is a recession, of course home sales are down (and 2nd market income should be up), 2) it's about exposure and goodwill, not about immediate sales, 3) you have to commit to something for 3 - 5 years at a loss to see any real benefits.  They should have joined the Championship to the Toronto Pinball and Gameroom show.

The real fact is that not only are we in a big recession, but Canada has 1/10th the population of the US, and if the market for Pinball is dieing, it is dieing 10 times as fast here.

Maybe this means that the budget that would have gone into an event like this (or at least a portion of it) goes into next year's Toronto show (if that happens)?  Starburst was a sponsor, but maybe they could take a more active role next time around in the tournament (providing more games, prizes etc)?  

Agreed on the long tail effect though-I never would have gotten back into pinball had it not been for the CPC last year.  

Quoted from websherpa

The real fact is that not only are we in a big recession, but Canada has 1/10th the population of the US, and if the market for Pinball is dieing, it is dieing 10 times as fast here.

Really? We're seeing new members on this board all the time. I think interest in pinball collecting/owning is growing all the time. As arcades close down, more people will be willing to buy games, as there's nowhere else to play them.

If there was an arcade down the street with a bunch of awesome and working pins, I probably wouldn't own six machines.

Just wanted to bring this thread back as I had a good talk with Guylaine from playdium about the CPC this year and why it isn't being run.  

According to Guylaine, Playdium took 3 big losses on doing shows in 2009/2010.  They lost money at the Toronto Hobby show, they lost money on the Championship and they lost money at the Toronto Game Room show.  3 attempts at marketing to the pinball community and 3 events that ended in the red for them.  So she said it was very tough to sell upper management on doing the CPC again this year because of all the other losses that had been piling up.  

Now she did say that they want to do it again and were planning on running it in 2010.  She can see the value it brings to the pinball community and the positive exposure it brings to Playdium.  But there were other factors as well, Playdium showroom is scheduled for a big renovation and overhaul to increase the size of the show room floor.  This is slated to start late this month early next month, so the playdium show room will be in no shape to host the CPC at it's usual time.

They thought maybe it might be a good idea to instead do the CPC at the playdium entertainment complex in Missassauga but the problem is that the Playdium complex is already booked solid with corporate events and it's not like they can cancel them to make the space available for the CPC.  

They are kicking around the idea of doing it in the spring but it is still very preliminary at this point.  

Anyway after having the conversation and getting a better explanation on everything I figured I would post here so everyone could better understand the reasons behind why the CPC will not be happening in 2010.  

After talking with Guylaine and getting this explanation I don't see how anyone can fault them for not running the CPC in 2010.

The prizes don't need to be so big.. I'm sure with most players, bragging rights and a nice trophy or plaque for the gaming room is incentive enough.

Then again, I'll never win one so what do I know    Just playing pinball with friends is enough reason for me, though.

Quoted from machine.slave

The prizes don't need to be so big.. I'm sure with most players, bragging rights and a nice trophy or plaque for the gaming room is incentive enough.

Then again, I'll never win one so what do I know    Just playing pinball with friends is enough reason for me, though.

Less prizes means less players and less exposure guaranteed,  

Sounds like they care about the community, but they are a business first. I'm glad that they can at least see past the losing money on the event problem to the positive effect it can have in the long run.

Quoted from jonny_eh

Sounds like they care about the community, but they are a business first.

That's the feeling I get as well

Quoted from Vengeance

Less prizes means less players and less exposure guaranteed,  

Like I said before... don't narrow it down to pinball. Did you all take a look at Starburst's showroom? Good... then use ALL of it.

Have a vids tournament as well. Vids are WAY less hassle to deal with for a tournament. Have a billiards tournament as well. Have a CHARITY poker tournament dedicated to a kids' charity. that makes it more family friendly.

Have redemption games on for kids... not turned off like last time in order not to disturb any of the pinball players.

You are narrowing it down way too much. Not many families will go there, but if you add other elements in the mix, you will get more exposure.

If you stick with only pinball, you will stay in the red.

Quoted from Sparky

Like I said before... don't narrow it down to pinball. Did you all take a look at Starburst's showroom? Good... then use ALL of it.

Have a vids tournament as well. Vids are WAY less hassle to deal with for a tournament. Have a billiards tournament as well. Have a CHARITY poker tournament dedicated to a kids' charity. that makes it more family friendly.

Have redemption games on for kids... not turned off like last time in order not to disturb any of the pinball players.

You are narrowing it down way too much. Not many families will go there, but if you add other elements in the mix, you will get more exposure.

If you stick with only pinball, you will stay in the red.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but they have already done all of that, not at the same event, but over time.

They had a pool event.

Then did the DK challenge in conjunction with the CPC last year.

Quoted from Vengeance

I'm not disagreeing with you, but they have already done all of that, not at the same event, but over time.

They had a pool event.

Then did the DK challenge in conjunction with the CPC last year.

I hardly qualify 1 Dk machine as a vid attraction. Fun, yes, but it wasn't a main focus.

Starburst would make money with NON-collectors at one of these events. And they had very little to offer that crowd. They won't buy a NIB game, nor will they go through the hassle of the auction for scraps. Nor will they drive over to play a few vids off hand like that.

It was a bit boring once you were no longer playing tournament pinballs. There were no activities going on. Nothing to attract a crowd. Nothing that says "HEY people... you can OWN one of these in your own home!"

Just my opinion...

Quoted from Sparky

I hardly qualify 1 Dk machine as a vid attraction. Fun, yes, but it wasn't a main focus.

Starburst would make money with NON-collectors at one of these events. And they had very little to offer that crowd. They won't buy a NIB game, nor will they go through the hassle of the auction for scraps. Nor will they drive over to play a few vids off hand like that.

It was a bit boring once you were no longer playing tournament pinballs. There were no activities going on. Nothing to attract a crowd. Nothing that says "HEY people... you can OWN one of these in your own home!"

Just my opinion...

I don't really feel like debating this with you, all I wanted to do was add some further clarification.  

It's all well and good for us to sit here behind our keyboards and say they should do this, this and this.  But end of the day it's Playdium putting in the effort, Playdium putting up the money, playdium putting up the man power.  It is a mess ton of work just to run the CPC and to try and do an everything under the sun type event would be a huge undertaking.  If it was as simple as you seem to be making it out I'm sure it would already have been done.

End of the day I understand Playdiums reasoning and I support their decision, I think it's the smart decision and hope to see them continue this in the future.