The 3 minute play point is interesting. Unfortunately what I witnessed is that the younger crowd never really learned to play pinball so no matter how generous you make the game, 3 minutes of play may not activate a single toy often and will amount to nothing more than a series of hopeless ball saves. Very disappointing and probably would lead most newcomers to walking away dissatisfied.
I agree with the poster that says pinball has done little to promote itself and in IMO doing so has not generated the interest for newcomers to stick with the games in order to build the skill set required to really enjoy pinball.
There is almost a dichotomy in players today. One's who can and one's who can't and trying to satisfy both is a challenge.
Here's a direct link to Steve Ritchie's post. Ouch indeed! Go Steve go!
I hope Stern sells to Steve Ritchie and pals, as if that could ever happen.
Have
Want
-The Getaway: High Speed II!! -Spider-Man -F-14 Tomcat -Guns N' Roses -Lord of the Rings -Twilight Zone
-Medieval Madness! -Indiana Jones (Williams) -Star Trek: The Next Generation -Champion Pub -Terminator 3 -Congo -Johnny Mnemonic -Tales of the Arabian Nights
Here are games I would like to acquire this year, or sometime...
24 Iron Man Attack From Mars Prefer Pounded playfield! Monster Bash Prefer Pounded Playfield! Elvis Sopranos Batman Forever Spider-Man Stern Prefer Pounded Playfield!
Have these available for trade or possible sale: Corvette South Park Theatre of Magic Twilight Zone RFM/SW:EP1 Nucore Combo AFM
Only thing to save pinball is a re-release of Williams/Bally's best games...that's it that's all. Stern's games are garbage, and the sooner he's gone the better.
MAACA impersonation of Steve getting his daily "pep talk".
So Steve felt they were good for 2.5 polished games a year. Just looking historically what they did it was 2.7 games per year average but the last couple were 3 which is probably where the pressure started to appear. Mind you 2003 was arguably a good year for games getting polished (LOTR and TSPP) and that was a 3 game year. I am working on the basis of artwork and some changes to dots (and minor rule alterations) not counting which is not entirely a fair analysis.
Only thing to save pinball is a re-release of Williams/Bally's best games...that's it that's all.
nobody gave a flyin' f*** about williams games from '95 onward. pinball started its death after TAF. the designers have to take a step back and reinvent something fresh with mass market appeal. not appeal to the hard core eliteists. Kid's stepped into arcades and plunked down quarters because it was new, exciting and grabbed their attention.
the sad reality is, you need 1 million to develop a game (if you already have the manufacturing infrastructure to assemble). what nobody has (or the viral vision) to spend the 20 million plus for mass market campaign to get people hooked.
the fundamental part of the equation is figuring out who will buy the games since arcades don't exist. home sales arn't enough and kids prefer to buy consoles and cartridges for home. let alone plunk 4K for cabinet.
nobody gave a flyin' f*** about williams games from '95 onward. pinball started its death after TAF. the designers have to take a step back and reinvent something fresh with mass market appeal. not appeal to the hard core eliteists. Kid's stepped into arcades and plunked down quarters because it was new, exciting and grabbed their attention.
something new has to happen.
I disagree. Retro is very in right now....and pinball is as retro as your gonna find. However, pre 1985 games are a little slow and lame for todays kids and average joes. So I figure if some select Williams games (1986-1996) were re-released they would rake it in. However, they would have to be new or at least in fantastic shape...some cracked old dusty thing will not cut it!
Of course the days of arcades are pretty much out, so movie theaters are the place...and at movie theaters they would get all age groups, not just kids. -For the kids the games would be more simple, so that would draw them in and keep them interested. -For the 25-50yr olds they would actually remember playing these games, and that would draw them in. -The teens are into "retro" and I think are getting sick of the dance dance type games, so they'd go for it. -The manufacturing costs would be kept down because the design is already done, the "older" games have less costly toys, and parts are around from the original games to mix and match in the repair business
*I'd still manufacture a few 1997-1999 games, but they would have to be only the exceptional ones
You're all missing the point. It's too late, if pinball even had a chance to be saved, it's now gone. The biggest problem is that there's no place to put the damn things, and they require too much maintenance. Pinball saw a resurgence in the early 90s because that's when arcades got a resurgence too. Is it a coincidence that TAF got big right when SFII got popular? As arcades declines, so did pinball. If pinball has a future, it's in my basement (and other people's basements). There probably aren't enough people buying pins for home use to justify designing new games, but there should be enough of a market to remake older popular games with small runs, like what Wayno is 'trying' to do with MM. So, in that case, I agree with Hippochrome. Either that, or create a new pinball platform for the home, where it is super easy to swap playfields, kinda like pin2k. There's no reason why the connections to the backbox can't be routed through one connector.
If my suggestions aren't feasible (and they're probably not) then pinball, as we know it, will die (and it probably will). It can still live on in our basement with the existing games, and with video pinball, but it's a shame there won't be new ones to look forward too.
Have
Want
-The Getaway: High Speed II!! -Spider-Man -F-14 Tomcat -Guns N' Roses -Lord of the Rings -Twilight Zone
-Medieval Madness! -Indiana Jones (Williams) -Star Trek: The Next Generation -Champion Pub -Terminator 3 -Congo -Johnny Mnemonic -Tales of the Arabian Nights
If the 97-99 Williams games were so good, why did they get out of the pinball business? When those games were new, they couldn't get rid of them. As for new machines, the market is dead, there are better things to catch peoples attention these days. We like pinball because that's what we like, but for everyone to keep positing about what should be done, gets old. Don't you think Gary knows whats going on? he's been there before, many many times, the money's in his pocket. All those pin designers are old, and stuck in the 80's. Get with the times, there is a very small market for new machines, like it or not. Williams is making good money on slot machines these days, they don't care, they made their money.
In the house: Gottlieb Haunted House Williams Black Knight
Gone: Williams Pinbot Williams White Water Data East Jurassic Park Stern Big Game Gottlieb Force II Williams Laser Cue and some others ....
*I'd still manufacture a few 1997-1999 games, but they would have to be only the exceptional ones
What exceptional ones?? there weren't any.. The exception being MM. which managed to earn money for the op's. TAF & EBD sold 20K+, in 1994, you had a few titles produced in the 9-12K range, then 96 onwards saw 4K max for any one title.
The problem needs to be looked at in a new perspective: to attract and engage the player.. what shape or form it takes nobody knows
The slot machine business was more profitable than pinball. They shifted their efforts to where the profits were.
For all intents and purposes Pin2K was a success. It just wasn't as profitable as building slot machines.
There are still locations. Maybe not the traditional arcades except where people have time on their hands like airports and train terminals. I am sure bars would take in a fresh game or two as would many other locations, theatres etc. If anything is at risk in the near future it is even the latest gen of commercial video games and I even see a resurgence of pinballs replacing them. Console games are far too well technically developed and far deeper than any arcade game experience can deliver in a few minutes.
If anything vids are dead and pinball can fill the void.
Only thing to save pinball is a re-release of Williams/Bally's best games...that's it that's all. Stern's games are garbage, and the sooner he's gone the better.
Pardon me for saying, but if you really believe this to be the case, you need to smoke another fatty. There's no way that making *somone else's* games that only pinball collectors really believe to be amazing is going to "save pinball". Seriously, that's gotta be the biggiest load of horse kaka I've ever read on this forum (with regards to the pinball industry). it's like saying Ford could return to profitability if they started making '63 split-window Corevettes. C'mon.
And I wouldn't say "Stern's games are garbage", either. Some bad licenses, some ruleset faults, but they're far from "garbage".
Sorry, Hippochrome, but I respectfully completely disagree with your post.
However, pre 1985 games are a little slow and lame for todays kids and average joes. So I figure if some select Williams games (1986-1996) were re-released they would rake it in. However, they would have to be new or at least in fantastic shape...some cracked old dusty thing will not cut it!
Do you think that the average joe pinball player will recognize late 90's Bally/Williams machines as "retro"? I doubt it. 99.9% of the population has *no idea* that MM was made in the late 90's or who made it. To the average person, a new Stern looks just like a WPC Bally/Williams. There is no difference to them. Seriously.
LCD technology is the next logical step, IMO... either in place of the DMD, or perhaps on the playfield somewhere.. but LCD *needs* to happen. Unfortunately, they said during the tour that the technology isn't cost effective.. but I'd be willing to bet that people would pay a few extra hundred per machine to have that in their pin.
Own Magic, Star Gazer, Batman Forever, STTNG, Mystery Castle (project)
Gone Fairy, Secret Service, Meteor x3, Title Fight, Eight Ball Deluxe, Bone Busters Inc., Seawitch, Starship Troopers, Strange Science, Arena, Hook, Pin*Bot x2, Time Warp, Motordome, Robocop, Black hole, Jurassic Park , Wipe-Out, Pinball Pro: Challenger I, Swords of Fury, Stargate, Party Zone
I think it would be terrific to project animations inside the game with a small LCD projector. Like a fully animated Rudy or for example the three heads in the Haunted Mansion ride all interacting immediately to your gameplay. Can you imagine how great Haunted Mansion would have been as P2K with the ghosts floating around on the glass like the ballroom in the ride?
it's like saying Ford could return to profitability if they started making '63 split-window Corevettes. C'mon.
And I wouldn't say "Stern's games are garbage", either. Some bad licenses, some ruleset faults, but they're far from "garbage".
Sorry, Hippochrome, but I respectfully completely disagree with your post.
Do you think that the average joe pinball player will recognize late 90's Bally/Williams machines as "retro"? I doubt it. 99.9% of the population has *no idea* that MM was made in the late 90's or who made it. To the average person, a new Stern looks just like a WPC Bally/Williams. There is no difference to them. Seriously.
Corey
Yes, if Ford, Chev, etc.. re-released classic cars they would make crazy profit! Instead they've been trying to redo the classics like the new mustang, new charger, etc...which are ugly and nowhere like the classics.
The exact same can be said about Pinball....Stern is "trying" to make pinball machines (which are classic in nature) but are his new pinball machines are lame, rushed out the door, full of errors, and boring after 30min. Bring back 'exactly' the true hits (pinball, or cars) and they will sell.
The average joe do recognize the old machines, and get really excited to know that they still available....these same joes then try the new Sterns and get confused by the rules/modes, and turned off by clunky choppy crappy feeling that Stern's gameplay offers and go away with a bad taste for pinball.
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I would look to see how well the Williams and Gottlieb Video rereleases did to see if there wis/was enough of a nostalgia market. People in my age bracket (who loved Black Knight, High Speed, Xenon, etc.) are only now just being able to afford to purchase them for their basements, and as such they take up a lot of space, and having only one gets old fast. With a recession in full swing, the last thing on most people's minds right now (ours excepted) is pumping up their games rooms when you can spend $250 and get a WII or XBox and the world is your oyster (for the kids anyway).
Now, there is a bit of history that would have to repeat itself. Arcades were traditionally places where post-war and depression teens (and families in England) went to gamble, and lose themselves so they didn't have to think about the hardships of life. Movies have that same kind of draw (and movie theatre attendance is on the rise again). Teens adopted ardacdes, not only because that was the only place they could often play the newest games, but it was a place of their own to "hang" and even to buy and sell recreational drugs.
I lose myself in my pins (playing and fixing) because it is another world and when I'm in it, I don't answer the phone, and the rest of the world doesn't matter.
About the only future I can see for pinball, apart from collectors and a few well-to-do people's basements are museums and places like Disney's Arcades,DisneyQuest and Playdium (that is until we are long past taking our kids there) - and potentially "nostalgia" arcades. People have asked me whether setting up a "family friendly" arcade (that doesn't open too late and not during school hours) might be a way to entertain the youth of our town (skateboard park is the biggest draw right now). I don't honestly know whether they would be interested in in pinballs. My 8 year old son would gravitate towards a driving game or a first person gun video game in a heartbeat before he would a pinball (and it's not like he doesn't like them).
Pinballs require too much thought and skill (these days), there isn't enough of an immediate payoff (except for some of the easier games) to satisfy today's media saturated minds. I don't know, I think the future is pretty dark for pinball. It would take a genius to ressurect it. Though I personally believe that Williams / Stern et al, are missing the boat on taking pinball BACK to the casinos, since it now registers with the boomers who attend them (and might possibly go just because they have them) - that's today's "arcade" for yesteryear's pinheads.
I think it would be terrific to project animations inside the game with a small LCD projector. Like a fully animated Rudy or for example the three heads in the Haunted Mansion ride all interacting immediately to your gameplay. Can you imagine how great Haunted Mansion would have been as P2K with the ghosts floating around on the glass like the ballroom in the ride?
Shoot the sculls as they ascend out of the organ during spirit waltz multiball.
Sounds like the creative juice is getting squeezed out by a bunch of unimaginative yes men from Steve's post.
I definately agree with Steve on one point ... crappy licensing. A Haunted House theme pin would cost ZERO in licensing fees, and would be a high seller if well done.
I still dream of a P2K pin with a Haunted House theme... imagine the potential.
Stern going under? At this point, why not.... BUT... that being said... I hope another player enters the arena with maybe a P2K design with the NuCore system... now THAT would be great!
And as for cutting production costs, there are ways around that. Parts commonality is easy. Have a single common main harness for all pins, with different wiring branches at the end. EASY to do. Takes up a bit more wiring, but by making thousands of the same harness, and only the smaller game-specific harnesses between the main one and the components are custom, and you save lots. Also cut down on the custom toys... some are just redundant.
So technically, on a new (P2K or similar) cab, everything is the same except the playfield itself and the wiring stapled on the playfield right up to the main harness. You can go even further by having a simple generic but attractive cab. Sideart is nice and all, but in most cases, no one sees it.
Change the playfield in 10 minutes, install a new translite, use a flashdrive to install the new game programming in a couple of minutes, and you are done. It would sell. Ease of maintenance. Operators LOVE that.
It might and quite likely is game over for the new machines, but I would have to say it's hardly over for the collectors. I have seen many of the distributors that sell parts to collectors become more substantial over the past few years. The only thing holding them back is the licensing. I see it going the way of companies like Year One. You will get what you need in bits and pieces and end up paying a premium to build a nice pin.
At the end of the day there are going to be your Hemi Cuda convertibles and your 76 Mustang II's to buy up. Already this distinction is clearly being made.
The exact same can be said about Pinball....The average joe do recognize the old machines, and get really excited to know that they still available....these same joes then try the new Sterns and get confused by the rules/modes, and turned off by clunky choppy crappy feeling that Stern's gameplay offers and go away with a bad taste for pinball.
I work with a lot of "average joes", and when any of them come into my classroom, it doesn't matter what pinball machine is there at the time, they tell me "hey! I played one of those when I was a kid". The oldest machine I've had there is a 1976 Bally Flip Flop. The newest one I've had there was LOTR. They don't recognize the old from the new...it's just a pinball machine to them.
We recognize them, and get excited over them only because we're collectors. We've taken the time and effort to educate ourselves. To the others who haven't, one is the same as another.
"My power comes from my boundless rage"
** Getting Out **All that's left: (Vids) Bubbles**MAKE AN OFFER!**
What I read from Steve's comments is what I see in a typical manufacturing enviorment, same as what I work in everyday. In the ideal world, when the product is complete it is shipped out. However in the real world, you must drive the product to market to be profitable. Deadlines must be made and machines must be shipped, payroll must be met and vendors paid. We often ship out products with unfinished code and software bugs. These are resolved over time, customers are not left out to dry, but resolving these issues are prioritized and addressed by need and often less than ideal situations are creating in order to keep the cash flowing.
Reading those comments I see Stern coming at a crossroad, they will either come out of this more focused, or it will be the end. Gary Stern is a business man, do not confuse this for passion for pinball. His passion is the business of Pinball. Alienating people with passion for pinball as he has done is very dangerous and time will tell us what the result of this is.
It has been scientifically proven that light is faster than sound. That is why some people seem brilliant........until they open their mouth!
GARY STERN is the last man standing for a reason and he will still be around because he learned from the past.The layoffs at STERN was proof he will not go into the hole when times are tuff,a smart company will always do whats needed to keep themselves in business.Everybody thought pinball was dead a long time ago but who wouldn't want a LORD OF THE RINGS.IT WAS MADE BY STERN! WHOLY CRAP! A VERY COLLECTABLE PIN WAS MADE BY STERN!
That was a company everyone said would never make a pinball machine a collector would ever want.
I was playing CSI last week and I thought it was a cool game,will it be the next LORD OF THE RINGS or the next CACTUS CANYON?(LAST MECHANICAL PIN MADE BY BALLY)
AFM TOTAN INDIANA JONES FT ES NGG CHEXX BUBBLE HOCKEY CATACOMB STAR POOL also a collection of CRAP that is always getting bigger
I picture a guy that loves pinball machines throwing rocks at the last factory making them,I don't see anyone stepping up to make them,GENE tried and lost how much?Will GENE or WAYNE make pinballs.........I'm thinking no.
If your waiting for WILLIAMS/BALLY pins to start being produced you may have a long wait.
PAT LAWLOR said it at EXPO "WE as designers will bankrupt any company to get cool stuff in our games"
He also said "I don't think you will see pinballs being made in 5 years"
He wasn't being arogant,he was telling it the way it was.
Not the first time someone has killed there favourite hobby.
AFM TOTAN INDIANA JONES FT ES NGG CHEXX BUBBLE HOCKEY CATACOMB STAR POOL also a collection of CRAP that is always getting bigger
Yes, but what does that have to do with LOTR which is what you referred to?
So what you are saying, if I understand you rightly, is even when the designers are telling you they can't build what they should be building that we should all put blinders on and blindly follow along like sheep.
As for waiting. I am not waiting. If you look at what I have bought you will see there clearly is no "waiting".
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I'm with Ritchie, he has it right on, it's genious and savvy that drives innovation. I worked for Alliance Atlantis Films & Television during the beginning of its "demise" after going IPO and I would say that verbatim everything Ritchie said about Stern happened there to. It becomes not about "the product" any more, it's about "the stock" or "the profit" - get cheaper parts and improve our margin, or stop short of "finishing"... and because of that the product faulters. It's not "JUST" about pinball becoming less popular - we just see it more here because Canada evolves in entertainment technology faster (due to our overall wealth) than many countries.
Add to that the outrageous price one has to pay to play a round or two of pinball these days....
I have been pushing this message (below) since I started here on MAACA (sorry I forget the RGP poster I am quoting):
"1) Emphasize the random, both in rules and layout. Every game should have objectives that can only be reached by random motion of the ball. Being able to shoot at every objective is great for tournament competition, but for the average player looking to just have some fun, it's tedious and frustrating. In addition to random ball action, there should be a random element to the rules and objectives. Card games and casino games incorporate that aspect naturally, but the basic scheme should incorporate things that don't behave the same way every time. Use that random element to tease and tantalize.
2) Modes suck. Rules can be complex, but they should be SHALLOW. Experienced players approach a new game and ask the same old questions. How do I hit all the modes? How do I get the multiball? How do I get the obligatory extra ball? How do I get the wizard mode? Unfortunately, the number of people wanting to play that kind of game is waning. Deep and complex games are better played on game consoles nowadays.
But Pinball responded by adding MORE modes, MORE multiballs, MORE rules, MORE wizard modes, etc. Better to have a simpler objective: light up the grid, climb the ladder, knock down all the clowns, etc. Make these goals as tricky to accomplish as you like (and don't forget the random elements), but break the now-old patterns of modes/extra balls/multiball/ wizard mode. "
I wonder what Vengence has to say about this....
I have always said, being a "non player" player, that it's all about the sound-track, the humour, and being able to somehow, out of no where score a billion points or get the big multiball without a lot of "work" or linear play - earnng bragging rights out of the blue, or putting up your initials that makes pinball for me. IF I didn't get a little "hit" like this once in a while (again being a non player player), I wouldn't have much interest in playing (just as I didn't enjoy video games much because of their liniearity and the necessity of "training" hand-eye skills.
Skill comes second (and I am not de-emphasizing its importance in longevity of home owned machines, or for skilled players). But for the general public and the kids who could play pinballs, put quarters in and sell machines, IT IS A FORM OF GAMBLING, you put some minimal skill into a thing that sometimes PAYS OFF, and then you are hooked. You want to see if you can get it to PAY OUT again. The randomness aspect of pinball is partly responsible for the real boom in pinball in the last part of the 20th century. The number of people who derive pleasure from acquiring the "skill" of pinball is diminished because as far as complex entertainment gaming goes, nothing can beat the pseudo-reality of modern video games...pinball is boring by comparison. However, put someone in front of one and have it scream "goal" , have a crowd cheering (like WCS94 or Shaq Attaq) or hit a knocker, or light fireworks, or start a raucus music sting because you just scored some fantastic goal that you hardly know how you made it, but makes everyone in the bar turn their attention towards you, the "pinball champ" - and you essentially have the "magic" that pinball holds for most people. The desire to be able, through some sheer lucky play, to have the machine pay off in your favour.
JUST LIKE putting a quarter in a slot machine, hitting that random jackpot (since most people aren't skilled enough to purposely complete modes) is what made pinball attractive to the masses.
Despite what Ritchie says, however, I disagree that The Simpsons or Family Guy were poor properties for pinball and infact I think they fit rather well so long as you could select whether the game plays in "adult" or "family friendly" versions.
And I go back to my earlier point that if Pinball machines paid off in free games more frequently, they would be a whole lot more popular (because that's one unique thing that they have that video games and redemption games don't). And don't kid yourself, redemption games are "kiddy gambling" devices without question. Guess what the single most popular game in "Webkinds World" is? The Wishing Well. It's a slot machine. (Did I just go off on a wild tangent?
(If anyone is wondering why I mention slot machine theory in my analysis of pinball so much its because I have an equal passion for slot machines and gambling devices as for pinball.)
I have been pushing this message (below) since I started here on MAACA (sorry I forget the RGP poster I am quoting):
"1) Emphasize the random, both in rules and layout. [snip..]
2) Modes suck. Rules can be complex, but they should be SHALLOW.
[snip...]
Randomness is welcomed but not necessary (ie like the menagerie ball in CV or the spinning disc from FireBall). Modes are really no different than rules. just a different ruleset for a short period of time.
i agree that Modes need to be a little shallow but Pinball has always been about rules & skill. EM's are real b**** to play because they expect you to hit the targets in sequence and have the skill to do so. With the proliferation of DMD games started the excess Toy's and the notion that people want to be entertained just batting the ball around.
We need to go back to EM basics yet strike a balance with DMD animations.
As I stated before the game should have adaptive play and level up in scoring and complexity of rules as a result of the game identifying that the player is able to complete ever increasing complexity of tasks.
This way you appeal to the casual player and really truly challenge the expert.
Pinball has always been about rules & skill. EM's are real b**** to play because they expect you to hit the targets in sequence and have the skill to do so. With the proliferation of DMD games started the excess Toy's and the notion that people want to be entertained just batting the ball around.
We need to go back to EM basics yet strike a balance with DMD animations.
The average person MIGHT, might just catch a DMD animation once in a while, but for the most part they keep their eyes on the playfield.
CV's menagerie is an example of "annoyingly random for little purpose" or "A for effort, but just a bad idea", whereas Fireball and Whirlwind spinning plattesr add an intersting element of "challenge", not necessarily the kind of "randomness" I was referring to.
What I am referring to is the possibilty of having a really good game without necessarily having to "learn" a sequence of shots to complete.
I would agree that there is emphasis on "skill" in EMs (and any flipper game). Although the possibility of "nudging" and "skillful plunger play" always existed, it was the introduction of flippers that really made the pinball popluar because you could now really have the possibility of influencing the outcome of the "game". However with pop bumpers and slingshots, randomness never left the game. Now imagine a game where the computer attempts to "score" the pinball to the outhole between your flippers.
Skill was something that creeped into pinballs long before EMs. Even in bagatelle there is both an element of skill and randomness (as there is in Pachinko). But I would argue that it is the possibility of a good unskilled score that is important to keeping pinball popular with the masses.
I think of penny arcades and "Penny Falls" or coin pushers. Yes you can exercise "some" skillin rolling a coin into the right spot to tip the balance, but the coin can just as likely fall into tthe right spot to give you a win and that's what makes it "popular". Or a game like Shove Ha'Penny. You can be a very skilled player, but you will only get challenged by other skilled players. But for the average joe to become interested in the game, the possibility of a random win needs to exist in the beginning in order to draw you into it.
The one thing that Stern had almost right was that the average player must experience SOME of the important toys of a pinball during a game in order to remain engaged (not ALL). IN fact keeping some back, something that one person can achieve but another can not, is what can make the game attractive to play a number of times.
Despite the need for random wins, the strength of STTNG, for example, is two fold, if you know the show, you want to play out certain "modes" to see how well it represents what happens in the shows (so attention to the detail of the orignal property is necessary), and you start to become aware, that although difficult, the game is complex and there is more to "draw out" from it. Layesr to experience the more you play it, although there are some difficult shots, a lot can also be acheived randomly as well.
My point is, if you want to hook an new addict, you must let them experience the heroin early on.
The point on toys, interactive ones I am speaking of, is that they won't put money into more than a single new toy anymore. Look at TAF for example. Four "toys" if you will. The bookcase, the magnets, Thing flip and Thing. If you only have a single toy in there it's pretty hard to have that moment of discovery in which you suddenly find there is more to be earned in the game.
So what you are saying, if I understand you rightly, is even when the designers are telling you they can't build what they should be building that we should all put blinders on and blindly follow along like sheep.
The designer, Steve Ritchie, may be saying they cann't build what they want, but many of the games built are very fun and as much fun as any Williams games. Saying LOTR isn't a collectible pin is nonsense. The price has stayed pretty solid and it is desired by many open minded collectors that value fun over brand
Sure Stern created some dogs, but so did Williams.
I totally disagree with "dumbing" down the product. That's not what is needed. They need to accommodate both the casual player and the wizard. Family Guy/Shrek seems to be the best balance I have seen. To start MB, you either need to hit the centre can (when the mode is lite) x times or knock the drop targets down three times. It is quite possible to start MB by accident and this gives the novice the satisfaction of starting playing MB. The mini pinball is just a great gadget that people love and, again, is easy to understand. Spell pinball. For the pin wizard, you can stack modes, time when you start a MB to coincide with a mode, stack MBs, etc.
Some folks are claiming pins need to be more like EMs? Totally off base. I had two pinball novices over last night. The son, at 13, had never played pinball. While it is true he found all the games confusing even after explaining it to him, he found the Silver Ball Mania boring and slow. Producing slower, easier games would do nothing for pinball. Something else has to happen.
The writing appears on the wall and Stern will be closing. If that is the case, it will be a sad day in pinball. I just don't see another company starting in the future.
The writing appears on the wall and Stern will be closing.
I think that is inevitable. The sad thing is that in the end it will be the economy that kills it more than anything else. We can discuss policies, designers and anything else, but in the end it is just not profitable anymore. There used to be as many as six pinball manufacturer's before and now ONE cannot survive? Just goes to show you the times we live in today and anyone that thinks this economic mess will be resolved in a fiscal quarter or two is being sadly naive.
It has been scientifically proven that light is faster than sound. That is why some people seem brilliant........until they open their mouth!
I think that is inevitable. The sad thing is that in the end it will be the economy that kills it more than anything else.
A poor economy is what gave pinball a "boost" at one point in its life as a "diversion" since it was a gambling game with the prospect of turning your nickle into a half hour or more's worth of play time. Todays pinballs are too complex for novices and not complex enough for the massive multiplayer gamer, and too expensive to while away your time on them. Add to that the fact that corporate greed is about making a profit rather than making a living and you have the recipe for disaster. Think about the mega bucks spent on licensing properties instead of creating "original" properties.
Producing slower, easier games would do nothing for pinball. Something else has to happen.
Man, are you guys sure you're setting up your older games properly? I've never found older solid state games to be slow when they're properly adjusted and maintained (except for Space Invaders... that game is slooow).
It's always been about profit,you can't build a game like THE ADDAMS FAMILY unless you are selling more than 10,000 games in order to make it profitable.Young people don't play pinball is what PAT LAWLOR said and that is what killed it,I bet XBOX and PLAYSTATION can put all the cool stuff they want in thier games.STEVE RICHIE was absolutly right when he said a theme like THE FAMILY GUY was not liked by parents and they would not like a game like that in thier homes.PAT was right,with no young players the demand and new player base is dropping and in 5 years we will not see pinballs being manufactured.We all like them but how many people on this site will spend more than NIB STERN price for an old game thats popular.I just wonder how long it will take to get bored of the same old games when no more new games are on the way,everyone looks at the reviews of the new games and wants to try them out. What will you talk about when there is no new games? RGP will have nothing to b**** about but the fact they all could have made better game if they were in the pinball manufacturing game. GARY STERN is old and he will retire sooner or later,why would anyone take over a company that has a small profit margin? He should take his money and run or get his old partner back(JOE KAMINKOW) it wouldn't help much though because there in no more WILLIAMS designs to copy.
AFM TOTAN INDIANA JONES FT ES NGG CHEXX BUBBLE HOCKEY CATACOMB STAR POOL also a collection of CRAP that is always getting bigger
All I want to know is... where's my Transformers pin? Seriously though, a good theme will drive their sales for sure.. WPT is not a sales-driving theme, IMO. Like Hollywood and console gaming has been doing, they need to stick with the times of the new generation. The mid-thirties crowd that every other industry is targeting. Nail them with retro 80's, hit them with remakes of classic themes... hell, even a new Knight Rider pin.
On another note and as silly as it sounds, I thought the ability to select your level of difficulty on Motordome was a FANTASTIC idea! It keeps everyone happy! It rewards those who are more skilled with a more difficult game, yet keeps the scoring high and simple for people who just like to bat the ball around randomly. Hell it even changes the lighting scheme. A really great idea that I'd love to see in new games.
How about combining redemption with pinball? Granted, I have NO LOVE for redemption games.. but rewarding players with tickets wouldn't be a bad idea. It gives them incentive to play.
I think adding more free games is a bad idea. Op's certainly won't like it, and what happens when a skilled player steps up to the plate? They play for hours on 1 quarter. Not attractive to the ops at all.
Own Magic, Star Gazer, Batman Forever, STTNG, Mystery Castle (project)
Gone Fairy, Secret Service, Meteor x3, Title Fight, Eight Ball Deluxe, Bone Busters Inc., Seawitch, Starship Troopers, Strange Science, Arena, Hook, Pin*Bot x2, Time Warp, Motordome, Robocop, Black hole, Jurassic Park , Wipe-Out, Pinball Pro: Challenger I, Swords of Fury, Stargate, Party Zone
Problem: Kids don't understand or like pinball because all they do is play xbox. Solution: Introduce them to pinball on the xbox! Stern should license out their tables to guys like ZEN Studios for the hugely succesfull Pinball FX game. Great video pinball, awful tables and rules. Playing the latest Stern on the 360, PS3, or Wii can only increase interest in pinball.
Have
Want
-The Getaway: High Speed II!! -Spider-Man -F-14 Tomcat -Guns N' Roses -Lord of the Rings -Twilight Zone
-Medieval Madness! -Indiana Jones (Williams) -Star Trek: The Next Generation -Champion Pub -Terminator 3 -Congo -Johnny Mnemonic -Tales of the Arabian Nights
Wow lots to read, I really just want to comment on what Wayne said about dumming down Pinball.
Wayne your nuts
But in all seriousness, I think you ware way off base, not because I'm a player but because your logic doesn't make sense. Making things easier and making things random will yes keep thep casual player interested for the short term. But what then? Once you've seen and done it all there is no reason to come back.
I think the best example is that of my Fiancée, she used to play Pinball when she was a kid but in the 6 years I've owned pinballs, up until about 4 months ago, I can say she played about 2 games. She took an interest in LOTR, not being a pin player, she was happy bating the ball around, shooting the flashing shots, hitting the balrog and just having some fun. After I'd say about 15 games of just baning around, she asks me "So what am I supposed to do" and that was the hook, once I started to explain to her how she was satring multiballs and what she was supposed to be doing I found her in the basment playing even when I wasn't. She has gotten so into the rules that Destroying the Ring has now become something she really wants to achive and is striving toward that goal.
So to me LOTR is a great game because it has enough Toys to get you started but it has the rules to drag you in. Dumbing the game down and removing the skill will keep you interest for a bit, but once you want more are realize there isn't anything you are going to walk away.
What's going on at Stern is unsettling, but I think they have made an excelent product, but they seem to be forgetting what made their games great. There is a reason that games like TSPP, LOTR, POTC, FG, SM were great sellers, it's because they had enough to pull in the casual player enough to get them started and then ask "What am I supposed to do next". That's the problem with WOF, WPT, HRC, SX, TDK, IJ4, and possibly CSI. They have stuff get you started on enjoying the game, but once you get past that and ask "What am I supposed to do next" and find out, nothing, that's the game, you walk away.
I agree with Adam. As an operator, you need the repeat customers, what business doesn't? To a pin n00b, it's all the same, the complex rules are just ignored. All I can say is that I haven't been back to Uncle Buck's since Geoff removed the TSPP and replaced it with a South Park. I played the South Park twice, and saw everything there was to see, no interest in playing that again, and I'm not even that good a player (except when compared to Hippochrome). I have a feeling Geoff saw a spike in earnings when he put in the South Park, but I also bet the earnings will drop off rather quickly as there's nothing there to keep people coming back.
Have
Want
-The Getaway: High Speed II!! -Spider-Man -F-14 Tomcat -Guns N' Roses -Lord of the Rings -Twilight Zone
-Medieval Madness! -Indiana Jones (Williams) -Star Trek: The Next Generation -Champion Pub -Terminator 3 -Congo -Johnny Mnemonic -Tales of the Arabian Nights
Gotta agree, the "what am I to do" is a key. A brother-in-law has been to the house many times, and finally got hooked with TZ a few days ago. Once he knew a few of the shots, and could relax enough to look at the DMD you couldn't get him off the machine.
Its also more fun to compete - but you gotta have a friend to compete against. My friends suck at pinball so its no fun playing against them. It was great player The Loafer at BOPP / Sinbad - brought back memories!
I would love to support Stern by buying a NIB Black Spiderman!
Yeah Adam...great point. That's exactly how I got hooked on LOTR....and I bet if my average joe friends tried it would feel the same. However, TZ I just don't get the rules....I still just knock the ball around a few times and wonder what I'm supposed to be doing.
I'm sensing the beginning of an Ottawa Pinball League. I'm trying furiously to get medvet's initials off "my game" And I think Loafer wants a rubber-match.
Stern: I think the emphasis on "casual gamers" is a dangerous one, especially if they ever have dreams of selling to the home casual gamer. Casual gamers are typically cheap people, and last time I checked: new pinball machines ain't cheap.
I'm sensing the beginning of an Ottawa Pinball League. I'm trying furiously to get medvet's initials off "my game" And I think Loafer wants a rubber-match.
Ooops - hijack - PM sent to Sparky.
+1
I think this is a great idea, all kidding aside. How hard is it to organize monthly get togethers for an evening at various members in Ottawa area with the understanding that the games don't have to be 100% perfectly shopped etc. just playable. I had a blast at your house Doug with the games. It was really fun to play different games from what I have.
You know what - I'll start a new thread for interested parties and see if this can fly.
What does Wayne's questionable sanity have to do with good pinball anyway? At least he has self awareness which is the first step in his long road to recovery.
I wonder what the good licenses were that Stern weenies turned down that Steve mentioned?
I wonder what the good licenses were that Stern weenies turned down that Steve mentioned?
BARBIE
My wife's idea, but with a lot of stupid ideas, there's some truth / sanity to it. Getting kids interested is one of the many hurdles pinball faces and truthly pins are geared towards the male audience right now.
The gaming industry has attracted a new generation of gamers with pink-nintendo DS's, sims, pet-games, and guitar hero, etc.
Not saying "Barbie" is the solution, but trying to attract the younger generation is the problem - and "Barbie" is one bran storming idea to build on.
Normally I would buy that theory because it's about as good as some they chose, but with Gary's penny pinching mentality the lure of being able to glue an off the shelf doll in the centre of the field as the single toy, leads me to believe they didn't get this license.
I've been assuming this was a license passed on since John Borg's topcast interview. He said they were planning a pin based on a popular video game franchise last fall (when Halo 3 hype was at its peak). It would have RAKED in the cash, and I'd probably own one too. I seriously don't know why they missed the boat on that one, but I can totally see a guy like Gary just not 'get it' and balk at the high license fee.
I can just imagine playing a pin with the music and sound effects from that game, it would be epic.
Have
Want
-The Getaway: High Speed II!! -Spider-Man -F-14 Tomcat -Guns N' Roses -Lord of the Rings -Twilight Zone
-Medieval Madness! -Indiana Jones (Williams) -Star Trek: The Next Generation -Champion Pub -Terminator 3 -Congo -Johnny Mnemonic -Tales of the Arabian Nights
Own Magic, Star Gazer, Batman Forever, STTNG, Mystery Castle (project)
Gone Fairy, Secret Service, Meteor x3, Title Fight, Eight Ball Deluxe, Bone Busters Inc., Seawitch, Starship Troopers, Strange Science, Arena, Hook, Pin*Bot x2, Time Warp, Motordome, Robocop, Black hole, Jurassic Park , Wipe-Out, Pinball Pro: Challenger I, Swords of Fury, Stargate, Party Zone
Steve's been posting and answering in the thread...
my favorite:
Quoted Text
Gary demanded stuff, never in the form of suggestion. He demanded at a staff that I take out Doc Ock "out of respect for him" screamed 3 inches from my face. Everyone left the room.
I can just see Steve getting out his mic of his pocket saying " whaaat?"
Mrhide.pinnesota.org RAA La marié de Pinbot et La Créature du Lagon Noir, Eclipse et Capt. Card
HP5P
Male
websherpa
Female
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, Wipe-Out, Pinball Pro: Challenger I, Swords of Fury, Stargate, Party Zone
And I think Loafer wants a rubber-match.
I think that would've been a great theme.. it'd go well next to a Bad Cats 
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