I don't see these downgrades being a big deal either but can't help but think that BBH, IM, and Avatar are very similar in design/toys compared to a jam-packed Spider-man or even POTC. That's not to say that more is necessarily better but it saddens me a bit to think that Stern will never create pins with as much complexity ... ever. I understand the reasoning behind the cut-backs but it just seems the there's still a widespread appreciation for SM. If I had the money to spare, I'd buy a NI ... HUO SM.

Will these last three pins enjoy the same longevity?

Quoted from OTTOgd

Will these last three pins enjoy the same longevity?

I think IM will, BBH and Avatar will fall be the wayside of RBION, WOF and WPT.  

Quoted from Vengeance

I think IM will, BBH and Avatar will fall be the wayside of RBION, WOF and WPT.  

A little early to say that about Avatar, I think.

Personally I think the gameplay and theme of IM will keep it pretty high. I cann't see it selling for the same as WPT, Ripley's, WoF.

Totally agree with BBH.

Duane

I disagree that the cutbacks don't effect gameplay.  I have many balls bounce off the plastic apron and back into play.  I'm not complaining but what if that happened in a tourny and you were on the wrong end of that!  You have to look at the machine as a package.  if I rapped my knuckles every time I take the lockdown bar off it would piss me off.  I worked on my IM with the prop rods and had to put the sliders on since you cannot work on the back of the playfield with out putting it up or getting someone to hold the front of the playfield.  Then there is the argument of the price vs cutbacks.  I don't see the value of buying a NIB now and spending $300-$500 to get the machine up to snuff.  Some people are willing to do this but I don't see me doing it.  Now if Stern lowered the price and I had an option to buy the upgrades later on then were talking.  It's like paying BMW prices and getting Hyundai quality and options.  I think the solution is to lower prices so the opertor will make more(thus buying more) and the more home users can afford to buy them.

Just my .02

Lance

Quoted from TwilightZone

A little early to say that about Avatar, I think.

Theme alone hurts Avatar

Iron man is classic, has been around for decades and had a very good resurgence in the latest movies.

Avatar is a fad, the 3d affects are cool but the movie is mediocre at best, it will be gone and forgotten in the next 10 years guaranteed.  

Quoted from Cobra99

I disagree that the cutbacks don't effect gameplay.  I have many balls bounce off the plastic apron and back into play.  I'm not complaining but what if that happened in a tourny and you were on the wrong end of that!  You have to look at the machine as a package.  if I rapped my knuckles every time I take the lockdown bar off it would piss me off.  I worked on my IM with the prop rods and had to put the sliders on since you cannot work on the back of the playfield with out putting it up or getting someone to hold the front of the playfield.  Then there is the argument of the price vs cutbacks.  I don't see the value of buying a NIB now and spending $300-$500 to get the machine up to snuff.  Some people are willing to do this but I don't see me doing it.  Now if Stern lowered the price and I had an option to buy the upgrades later on then were talking.  It's like paying BMW prices and getting Hyundai quality and options.  I think the solution is to lower prices so the opertor will make more(thus buying more) and the more home users can afford to buy them.

Just my .02

Lance

In terms of bounce backs I can't say that it happens enough on my IM that I would consider it a problem.  Hell I can't personally think of a time that it has actually happened or ever felt like it happens more then it happens on a machine with an Iron apron.  As far as a tournament is concerned, bounce backs are an acceptable part of pinball and even covered in most rule sheets, as long as the player is not the one creating the bounce back it's deemed acceptable.  

As for the argument of quality going down and price staying the same as far as I'm concerned if this is what Stern needs to do to keep the company going, then do it.  Those clasps have existed and worked just fine for years and years in arcade machines to hold down the control panel and worked just fine.  I'm not a fan of the props but it hasn't hindered me in any of the repairs I've had to do, 9 time out of 10 I usually flip the playfield up anyway to work on the machine.  

Quoted from Vengeance

Theme alone hurts Avatar

Iron man is classic, has been around for decades and had a very good resurgence in the latest movies.

Avatar is a fad, the 3d affects are cool but the movie is mediocre at best, it will be gone and forgotten in the next 10 years guaranteed.  

Strong words my friend, especially when the pin is not out on the market yet.  It may be a classic regarless of the title. Look at TZ I don't see it much on TV, it too came and is now gone but the value of the theme stayed because it is fun to play. Same thing with POC.....just another movie kept alive by a sequel but a fun pin to play.  

I find that the only thing we have now is pins based on movies that made it big not much imagination left in the industry except for custom pins made from old title.  That is why I am happy about the new Spanish manufacturer, who knows this may bring back some players etc.

take care

Quoted from Cobra99

It's like paying BMW prices and getting Hyundai quality and options.  I think the solution is to lower prices so the opertor will make more(thus buying more) and the more home users can afford to buy them.

Just my .02

Lance

Well said, Lance. I agree. They keep lowering the quality and increasing the price. People are going to get pissed. Especially the operators.

Removing the slider rail and now the lock down bar is just stupid in my opinion. These are items that will impact the operator. It's a pain in the a** to work with those damn pegs. And the new lock down bar looks alot easier to pry open. It's certainly not as secure as the old system.

I like your idea of lowering the price and offering options the home user could install. This makes alot more sense than constantly reducing the quality AND increasing the price!

Duane

Quoted from Vengeance

Theme alone hurts Avatar

Iron man is classic, has been around for decades and had a very good resurgence in the latest movies.

Avatar is a fad, the 3d affects are cool but the movie is mediocre at best, it will be gone and forgotten in the next 10 years guaranteed.  

So we agree on IM? You said the price would fall. I disagree. You state "Iron man is classic, has been around for decades and had a very good resurgence in the latest movies." Seems to me, we are agreeing the theme is killer and price will reflect that.

Going to stay neutral on Avatar until I play it. I thought the movie was decent and I think the effects will be impressive for some time to come. I don't see the theme as being weak -- on the scale of Shadow, for example. I think it will come down to game play.

Duane

Quoted from gmaranda

Strong words my friend, especially when the pin is not out on the market yet.  It may be a classic regarless of the title. Look at TZ I don't see it much on TV, it too came and is now gone but the value of the theme stayed because it is fun to play.

Twilight Zone was a groundbreaking TV series that still has references in our culture today.

Avatar is meh.  The story is generic and predictable.  If it wasn't for the special effects it would have done the same as all other bland hollywood films.  

Quoted from TwilightZone

So we agree on IM? You said the price would fall. I disagree. You state "Iron man is classic, has been around for decades and had a very good resurgence in the latest movies." Seems to me, we are agreeing the theme is killer and price will reflect that.

No I didn't   the question was "will these new Sterns still have the same Longevity" and my response was "I think IM will"

So yes we agree you just can't read   

Quoted Text

Going to stay neutral on Avatar until I play it. I thought the movie was decent and I think the effects will be impressive for some time to come. I don't see the theme as being weak -- on the scale of Shadow, for example. I think it will come down to game play.

Duane

I'm trying to stay objective on avatar but the layout just looks lame and uninspired.  I would liken it to Shadow for anything but theme. Shadow has a crap theme but some of the best and unique gameplay in pinball.

I don't think avatar will be able to hold a candle to Shadow.  I'm usually not one to jump on the "this game is going to suck" bandwagon before I even get a chance to play the game, but I don't see anything the game has to offer that makes me think it will be fun to play.  

Quoted from Monkeybug

Twilight Zone was a groundbreaking TV series that still has references in our culture today.

Avatar is meh.  The story is generic and predictable.  If it wasn't for the special effects it would have done the same as all other bland hollywood films.  

The only nod I'll give avatar is for coming up with "unobtanium"  now that's just classic,