Quoted from necro_nemesis

Ok ToMMy. I get it. Once again you are right. My simplified explanation was wrong or lets say "more layman friendly" but it got the point across. Rewire the fn connector. On WPC this is done at the connector by the way.

Ha! See, I certainly don't everything about all of the WPC's generations ... obviously.
Just happen to be working my way through a domestic Demo Man this month .... it uses this really cool rectangular molex strapping plug that is mounted on top of the Switch-Service outlet box. On this model the wires on the transformer plug never change, you just need to either purchase the proper "molex strapping plug" to snap in there, or else re-strap the existing plug with a pin extraction tool, per the schematics.
WMS must have changed this design again, back to the old way, likely due to costs, etc.

Anyways, the picture Glen posted of 'other' way of strapping the transformer plug is identical to the way DE has always done it.
Cool.

Either way, if you spend much time working on these more modern DMD's, do yourself a favour & buy a pin extractor (and maybe some spare molex pins) to rebuild your power plugs back to domestic factory... that is, if you dabble in re-imports once in a while. Or, as Gory stated, if your not comfortable, have someone make the proper modifications or repairs for you. The AC (Primary Hydro) side of a pin can easily kill you or your friends, if you are not careful.

I've got to interject her for a minute because there is a trend coming out of this thread that really troubles me.

One common opinion coming out of this thread is that "You should have known better, you should have checked the machine over better, you picked it up, it's your fault"

I have to say I disagree 100% does a sellers word count for nothing anymore?  Is the pinball market so shady that when someone lists something as 100% working with No problems at all, we don't believe them?  I have to say personally that doesn't wash with me, my word is my bond, if I say something works and there is no problems, then it's going to work.  I can understand how someone dealing with a volume of machines may not notice every single thing but if they don't know every thing about the machine then they shouldn't be stating Great working machine 100%.  I haven't sold near the volume that some people have sold but I can say of the machines I have sold, I have not yet to have one person come back to me and say word one about any of those machines.  

It saddens me to think that the people who have responded thus far think that a seller’s word means absolutely nothing and that it is the responsibility of the buyer to make sure that everything they say is true.  This isn't an acceptable practice in any retail sector, why is it accepted here?  

A seller should be responsible for his product, if he can't be 100% confident in that product he shouldn't state that he is.  Sellers should have more responsibility to ensure a working product then buyers, they are the ones providing the service.  

Just my 2 cents anyway.

     I do totally agree...in this case as I stated before, all did work..nothing was misrepresented. The electricity issue was a hidden issue., at least to me. The cosmetics were right there to be seen.

     There are MANY people out there, on EBAY and other places, ripping off unsuspecting customers. I'm trying to get one of them, allaspects amusements, shut down right now. They ripped me off for $3000, and have done the same to many others, yet for some reason they continue to exist on EBAY. Others like FUN sell 100% garbage...machines sold as 100% working but usually have many many errors, some serious. I'd say out of all the machines I've bought ANYWHERE maybe 10% were totally as advertised. Thats the risk of buying thru EBAY...sometimes the deal is better but you never get to see the machine. Feedback is really a useless EBAY tool...most people are afraid to leave negative because they know they'll just get it back.

     There are definitely a few sellers out there that I really do trust, even though I buy their machines sight unseen. I've had good experiences with them and  will continue to buy from them in the future ( unless I actually finally stop one day). Thats not to say that I may get  a machine from them sometime that develops a problem shortly after I get it. Truthfully I almost expect every machine I get to develop some sort of issue..its the nature of the beast.

I'm not going to say one way or there other what went wrong with this deal, be it misrepresentation buy the seller or inflated expatiations buy the buyer, I wasn't part of the deal, I can't know and nor will anyone on this board know because there are always 2 sides to every story and unless your the one involved you'll never understand completely.

It was more of a general statement then anything.  I agree there are the sellers out there we should all watch for, FUN being one of them, but why are we even considering buying from them in the first place?  I mean if they are KNOWN for their dishonesty why reward them with sales on the off chance you might get lucky?

I don't think we can label Jim as a dishonest seller, it's one game out of how many?

You've been around this hobby long enough to know that no matter how honest a seller is, there will usually be something overlooked. (big or small)  I think almost every game (pin and vid) I've ever bought has had some kind of issue that the seller either chose not to disclose or honestly didn't know about.  Is that the sellers fault?  Could be, but it's not always the case.

That being said, will a buyer be able to spot all the issues the first time they see the game, hell no.  So there has to be a bit of give an take on both sides.  I personally try to disclose every known issue to any potential buyer, but I have had buyers come back to me on stuff I've missed.  Does that mean I mis-represented the game?  I would hope not, because that has never been my MO.

Now in this case who knows what really happened, but it's a cluster.  I honestly don't think Jim tried to be sneaky about it by not disclosing it, he most likely wasn't concerned with that portion of the game as it was powering up.  I would say honest mistake.  And it's not like Jim wasn't trying to work with Gory to come to some kind of agreement until it all hit the fan.

D

Quoted from Menace

I don't think we can label Jim as a dishonest seller, it's one game out of how many?

I wouldn't call Jim dishonest, I don't know Jim from a hole in the wall honestly, I think I've mabye emailed him once about a machine, if that, so I can't say one way or ther other if Jim is a good seller or not.  

My post was aimed more at the people saying Gory was at falt for not inspecting the machine when I don't belive it is his fault, where the blaim lies, I can't say as I said, we won't ever know the entire situation so we could never make an accurate judgement.  Also it seems that a resolution has already come to pass, hopefully both parties are happy but again that is up to them not us.  I just wanted to point out that as much as a buyer should do his due dilligence when buying a machine, so should a seller, the blame does not fall squarly on the buyer because he didn't inspect a machine with a fine tooth comb.  

Agreed.

Adam:

I listen to your comments, and then I look at the real world. Most machine I sell, I have shopped out. I sell them with confidence because I have gone through them, it takes me 15 hours to shop out a game, so I should know it what I am selling. The TZ I sold you was not shopped out, I flipped it to you and I evaluated it to the best of my ability, I am an electrical engineer, and I represented it to you on the basis of what I saw and I assume you are happy.

No offence to Jim, I am sure he agrees he is not a technical person or an engineer. If the game plays and looks decent, he seems to be happy with his games. If I were to buy a game from Jim or really any seller, I really do not care how they represent it, I look for the issues that interest me. And I cannot tell you how may things I have missed even after I inspected a game, even when I double check. Only after I shop a game do I really see common failure points that are bad on a game, and will require repair. Expecting a non technical seller, like Jim, that does not shop out his own games or even do his own repairs to be an expert, is not realistic. Gory is not a newbie. Yet if this happened, it shows that he (and I am not picking on Gory) does not have the expertise to judge a pinball game properly.

All I am saying, is take someone that has the ability to judge a game properly with you. You pay for a home inspection. Why? Because the person can give you a HONEST and NEUTRAL evaluation, with no emotions involved. So my suggestion is to take someone neutral that can give you a honest evaluation and hopefully these issue do not arise anymore. Hate to think someone could get seriously injured over a game.    

Buyer beware and sellers with better reputations sell more machines at a higher cost.  That's the reality.  When you sell used goods as "as is", there is no guarantee, no warranty, no insurance.  That being said, the "good guys" go out of their way to make amends, not just because of their reputation, but because they actually care about what they sell/trade, and the people they sell/trade to.  I'm making a general observation (as have all my comments here, I am not saying that it was anyone's fault or that anyone embodies these ideal traits).  

When it comes to evaluating a machine, it's the buyer's responsibility, not necessarily because the seller may be misrepresenting, but because everyone's "idea" of what constitutes "100%" or 8/10 differs greatly.  Partly because of specific knowledge, and also because of tastes and tolerances.  Me, I'm picky and know that no machine except 100% new is 100% (and even then new gets a service call to set up).  I ALWAYS find stuff that others missed.   But I had to learn that.  Epithets like "fantastic playfield" and "clean" and "shopped out" only relate to the seller's evaluation based on what else they have experienced.  Cheats and crooks are a whole different ball game.

It would be nice if we ALL knew better, but we don't, it's a learning process - and a group like this helps us all learn a little somethign with each machine.

That's a good example, the TZ you sold me.

When you sold it to me you were upfront, you said, I haven't shopped it, I bought it from a guy it's been sitting in storage, looks clean, but needs a shop.  You told me you don't know much about the machine, what I saw was what I got, and that it would most likely clean up real nice, which it did by the way   But anyway my point is with you explination I didn't have any expectations.

Now had you said, yea this machine works great, everything is working 100%, it's been shopped and everything is cleaned, then I would have had a problem.  Then I would have expectedteh clock to be working, I wouldn't have expected the layer of dirt I found when I stripped everything down, there were a few other minor problems that I cant remember right not but again if you had stated this machine is in great shape and is 100% working then I would have had something to say.

But you didn't you represented the machine accordingly which was why I was more then happy and wouldn't hesisitate to buy something from you again.

Also I'm not saying that is what happened in this situation I'm just using this as an example.

I have to admit that I did buy a second time from both FUN and KAWeaver, but it was because they sharpened their pencils BIG TIME to try and make up for the first time...trouble was the second time was just as bad as the first ( With FUN it was worse...with KAWEaver it was passable). Definitely once bitten twice shy...neither one will I buy from again. FUN actually blocked me after I slammed him on RGP!!!

Quoted from HP5P

Adam:
Expecting a non technical seller, like Jim, that does not shop out his own games or even do his own repairs to be an expert, is not realistic. Gory is not a newbie. Yet if this happened, it shows that he (and I am not picking on Gory) does not have the expertise to judge a pinball game properly.
    

  not starting again.  but when this was sold to me i was told it was repaired completly for jim by another member that night.  they stayed late doing the work.  same guy he uses to do most of his repairs.  i am not stating anything about him.  just told all was working and such beforehand, during and after the deal.  told later after stuff happened that nothing under the pf was worked on and the pf was never opened.  later told different.  as for the wiring it is not hiding.  it is right there out in the open on top and out the sides.  just like in the pictures.  i didn't need to move or bend any wires.  they were all hanging out.   so i took his word that all was looked over and repaired.   thats all.  don't want sides taken.  just wanted the truth out there.