I was trying to think of a way to finance all the machines I want to purchase over the next few years and I was wondering...

Can a person still make money on pinball machines?  What kind of location do you need to get into?  Does anyone still make enough money to actually pay off the machine over time?  How long does it take?

If I could put 3 or 4 machines on location and have them paid off over 3 years that sounds like a good plan to me.  But - does is work??  Anyone??...

Probably not worth it IMHO.

buy a machine already !!  STOP OBSESSING !! ... oh wait ..  welcome !!

There have been many posts over the years here and the general opinion is you do not make money on pinball. The days off finding pins at cheap prices are over. Even the operators have become educated.

View pinball for what it is: a hobby and enjoy it!!!

My two cents.  

Quoted from sinpin

Can a person still make money on pinball machines?

http://hem.bredband.net/molander1/FUNNYGUY.WAV

It used to be that you could buy them cheap, sell them at a profit, but that has increasingly become difficult with the rise in popularity of the hobby.  Puting the machines on location is cost prohibitive because you need to get individual operating licenses for each machine, insurance,  maintenance, and you share your income 50/50 with the location owner. In most places you'd be lucky to rake in 20$/week BEFORE sharing and deducting operating costs..  If you put older/cheaper machines, less people will put money in them.

Bottom line is that if you're looking for a way to get free machines, you'll be disapointed.

Spreading the word through your family/friends/neighbours is best way to get a good deal on a machine in someone's basement that's collecting dust.  Of course don't expect a nice, pristine, or even working machine in that case.

My 0.02$

Mike

Quoted from sinpin

Can a person still make money on pinball machines?  

In a word ...   No .

--

I assume your intent was to make money on location
rather than flipping for profit.

You'll get very little money on location after you consider
permits, coin-ops licenses, insurance, profit sharing with location, etc...,

and worse yet, your games will get beat-up and/or you'll be spending alot time
repairing them

Just not worth it...

Like others have said,  this is not a hobby to make money.
You'll be lucky to break-even....

Steph

As others have said, you cann't make money with pinball. You are looking at expensive games. If money is an issue, then start small and do the trade up program. The one really, really nice thing with pinball is that prices (at least for the last 10 years) have stayed constant OR increased. This means if you buy a decent game for $1,000 today and take care of it, it will be worth a $1,000 next year.

When starting out, I suggest to friends they spend $1,000 or so for a decent game. If they can afford it, go to $1,500 and buy a reasonable DMD. Save up and in a year or so, sell the game you have a buy a different game. Lather rinse, repeat.

Duane

I briefly researched the aspect of operating machines (my uncle did it for a living in the late 60's - 80's), but unless you have a large operation and cater to the newer machines AND are located in Quebec   it's difficult.  In Ontario at least there are a lot of crooks who protect their routes fibourously because they don't make much, and then there is Starburst.  The best "business plan" that I could come up with was renting machines to businesses for their relaxation rooms or to raise money for charity, but the associated costs and time moving pins around makes it less attractive EVEN as just a part time way to raise pinball funds.  The truth about pinball machines, particularly off route ones is that they break down, a lot, and unexpectedly.  They require constant service (even in a Home Environment).

So far, in order to finance my "habit" er I mean hobby, is to buy cheap project machines, fix them up a bit, enjoy them and then sell them or better yet trade them for a meagre profit.  Trade-ups works better because you can turn a low cost but highly appreciated pin or two into a more highly appreciated pin without exchanging too much cash.  AS soon as you start selling for cash, it becomes more difficult to realize the appreciation in value that you'd like to achieve (book value) because, amongst collectors at least, everyone wants a deal unless it's either highly collectible, or a HUO machine.  Now all that being said, the hobby has seen our retirement investments diminished slightly, and our on hand pinball stock increase, but there is more coming IN the door, than going out...so the economics are not working the way I had envisioned (i.e. buy low, sell high, get better pinballs).  It's more like Buy Low, spend oodles of time and money to refurbish, Keep Pin, Buy Higher.... Panic Attack, Sell Low....and so on.

All that being said, there are regulars on this board that are in the business of either routing machines or selling machines retail.

Absolutely no way..trust me!  But if you're slightly insane and enjoy losing a few bucks, there aren't too many ways that are as much fun!

You know, I disagree with every opinion in this thread. I am in the Vending machine business, Chips, Chocolate Bars, POP (Coke, Pepsi etc.) Bulk Candy, and, yes, a few games as well, and it is essentially the same idea. You will make some money doing it if you have a machine or two but that business is not designed for the casual part time business. It is all based on Volume. Every machine helps pull the weight of every other machine. Obviously Location Location Location is THE main factor to success. Everyone is saying $20.00 to $50.00 a week, who cares, but if you have 10 machines making $20.00 to $50.00 a week, $200 to $500 a week isn't so bad for 1 days work. You alone would have to decide what is the minimum acceptable amount and move them if they are below that rate. The same principle applies to games, Location Location Location!! High volume is necessary and sprinkling some good vids to help pay the bills is a good plan. You need good fun machines to the casual player and good challenging pins to the serious player. Congo comes to mind, as well as WH2O for starters, maybe a No Fear, or a Demolition Man, etc. But if you have 10 games operating that you can get for a fair price (Read Cheap!) have them working very well, resolder all wires on Solenoids and switches before it goes out as pins move and wires and solder break. Keep a "route box" of parts etc. and know how to fix Everything yourself, and don't look at it as a sprint, but as a slow and steady, kind of thing I think (Well, I know) it can work. My number 1 location problem is Coin jams, Kids put crap in coin mechs hoping to get free games.

The other thing that bugs me about this thread is every opinion here so far, is driving another nail into the coffin of Pinball in the public. Everyone asks where to play in the public but everyone also says it is ridiculous for anyone to try to put games out there. I think we should encourage and support the small operator instead of telling him not to waste his time. I ALWAYS play every pin I find on location.

So SinPin, Go for it! But I would seriously take the time to learn how Pins work and what is involved in repairing them. Be selective where you put them with abuse in mind, and go slow and don't expect to make thousands of $$$ on hundreds in investment. It probably isn't going to make you huge dollars but you can certainly make a bit of cash and wind up with a few games that you can flip towards other games.

Dave (Operating 2 Pins and 4 vids at this time, but have had double that out there)

Hey thanks Dave...  I needed someone to tell me what I wanted to hear.  I see what everyone else is saying as well.  It is obvious I am not going to make thousands of dollars but if I start this as a business and can show revenue Canada a "potential" to make money then I can write my first 3 years of losses against my personal income.

So in effect, the taxes I pay as a hard working "citizen" can assist with paying my expenses (machines, etc) on my vending business.  One of the main stipulations of this is there has to be an ability to make money and you can only write off losses for the first 3 years.  After that you have to either be profitable or pay the losses yourself.  

I think I am going to brainstorm 10 or so locations.  Then, I will go to those locations and survey the people hanging about.  Would you play pinball?  Do you like pinball?  What do you think of these games?  (flash to some nice big pics of a few machines).  If I can find some interest - maybe it can work?  My first thought is that people in the tech business or telemarketing business would enjoy cranking off a few games to reduce stress on breaks or lunches.  That is where I am going to start....  well, actually I need to buy a couple machines first so I can mess around and get some idea of how the hell they work

I put a Getaway in a Location once and the 1 guy who worked there all week saw me coming in with it and was Thrilled! "My Favorite game ever!!" He played it everyday at lunch, It did Great! hehehe The place was a Weekend and weeknight sports type place, so it was good to have it being used through the day. Some how the guy was Loop Champ at 27 loops or something insane like that! That is amazing!

Dave

Quoted from pins only

You know, I disagree with every opinion in this thread. I am in the Vending machine business,
if you have 10 machines making $20.00 to $50.00 a week, $200 to $500 a week isn't so bad for 1 days work.

Well I think everyone here gave the correct answer for the question which was: Can you make money with PINS..

10 machines X 1500$ (average price for a WPC) = 15000$ + insurance + profit sharing + licensing + maintenance.  Income is 200$-500$ a week for 10 machines. You do the math.

However I agree that you are correct to say that you have to diversify and get into the WHOLE aspect of vending machines to make a profit.  Just not "pins only"..  Pun intended

Those candy/crap toy vending machines are real money makers (in volume).

My 0.02$

Mike

i think it's a good idea,

i had one out in an office, but i chose the wrong location, so it didn't make any money, staff were cheap ^#*&@#*('ers, but if you find the right type of
venue, it could possibly be a good idea, i am thinking about putting one out again, as soon as i find the right place.

Eric

I still see System 11 games out there as well the latest Sterns, and I know of a Gottlieb "Lights, Camera, Action" and a "Hot Shots" on a location as well. Whether they make any money or not...

Also, I think the goal was to lessen the cost of his pins, so actually making the target is easier. If you make back 1/2 the cost of the machine and sell it for your original investment (Which can be done with Pins), you have made money. This is very tough in lots of businesses. Also it is one of the few businesses that you can essentially start for a couple of grand, or less depending how you go. I started with Bulk Candy vending machines in a friends shop that I bought at an Antique show and flea market for very little $$. I bought them because I thought they were cool and so I would have bought them anyway, so the original start up cost came out of my exixting pile of Crap in the Basement! (0.00$$$ start up investment) 15 years later, well, that is a different thread.

Dave

Just speaking to one of the local operators here in Ottawa - whose sole income is on pins (I believe); his biggest challenge is finding locations.   He has no shortage of pins.  It is just time consuming to find a location and establish a relationship with that location.  

I think the idea with "Office" locations (think Web Developer and Call Centre lounges), is that you get the employer to pay a fixed rental fee.  

Then they either pocket the profit (or loss), set on free play, or collect for charity.  

By the way, it IS possible to make a good profit on Vending Machines, my Uncle was the equivalent of Starburst out west and he made a killing (literally, got tied in with the mob) and retired in California somewhere we think.  He always had the best cars, boats, and travelled and partied constantly (though he was heavily into vids and cigarette machines at the time they were most popular).

On first read of sinpin's question I coudl swear he was asking whether it's possible to finance personal pin acquisitions via the hobby (which I am sure we ALL have thought about).

"I was trying to think of a way to finance all the machines I want to purchase over the next few years and I was wondering..."

Having 3 on location would have to pay for the 5 you purchase in order to have two to swap out and play at home while you wait for them to pay for the costs I would think, otherwise all your machines are out on location and more difficult to swap out, and no fun at home.

pinballisnotdead.com it's just moved into 40-something's unfinished basements!  

Also, you can carry forward business losses for up to 7 years, so with good accounting you may be able to keep your taxable income at a lower bracket for a longer period if you have a business that makes some money but looses in the beginning.  Save the loss for a time when you are flush.  However, pinball machines themselves (inventory) I suspect might be deemed capital inventory, so it factors into the equation a little differently than non-capital expenses and likely gets amortized over a period of time.  All that being said, I am my company's own worst nightmare when it comes to taxes, finance decisions, and bookkeeping, so please don't believe a word I say on the subject.